Marie Vakakis: [00:00:00] Breakups are tough on anyone, but for many men, they can come with a particular mix of shame, loneliness, and isolation. In this episode, we’re going to talk about some of those things in a little more detail, and I’m interviewing Michael Wilson, who did a World First study at Origin looking at. Suicide prevention suicidality, and we start talking about the pressures of masculinity, expectations, things that are said and unsaid, and all of these messy things in the middle.

In this episode of this Complex life, Michael shares what his research uncovered, how it’s changed the way he interacts with male friends, and what gives him hope for how men are learning to connect differently. This is a conversation about relationships with vulnerability. And change and why understanding men’s experiences of breakups can help us respond in healthier and more compassionate ways.

Welcome to the podcast, Michael. 

Michael Wilson: Thanks for having [00:01:00] me. Great to be here. 

Marie Vakakis: I came across your research through a report, or I guess an article on the Origin, a website, but can you tell us a little bit about. Just an overview of your sort of world first groundbreaking research. 

Michael Wilson: Yeah, sure. So I came to this topic, so looking at relationship breakdown and men’s risk of suicide really after working in men’s mental health and suicide prevention research more broadly for the last kind of seven years or so.

And I suppose any time we were doing anything to do with looking at suicide risk in men, which is really important, considering men account for 75% of all death post suicide in Australia and many other nations. But when we were looking into this, we found again, again that relationship breakdown, relationship problems, sort of interpersonal stresses was routinely coming up.

As a really strong kind of risk factor or context of suicidal thoughts and behaviors for men. But in looking into it more just I realised that there wasn’t really [00:02:00] any sort of specific research aiming to unpack that risk factor and understand why is that such a big risk factor for men, which is not to say it’s not a risk factor for women, it’s actually a risk factor regardless of gender.

But I think there are particular gendered pathways and influences that may. I guess exacerbate or ameliorate men’s risk in the context of relationship breakdown and those risks hadn’t really been explored. And so with this review, we, we looked, you know, at all of the available global evidence really to try and understand, you know, from, from what was out there, what are the factors that differentiate which man are most at risk, and what factors actually play a role in that risk of suicide, post relationship breakdown.

And so it was, yeah, the biggest kind of, most challenging piece of research I’d ever worked on. But it was a relief to, to have it finished. But we, yeah, basically reviewed 75 studies from around 30 countries worldwide, and the total cohort of men [00:03:00] represented by those studies that we were reviewed was a bit over 106 million men, again, around the world.

So the biggest sample, the biggest sort of study to really focus on this. Risk factor that had ever been conducted. And so what we found across the board was really that relationship breakdown, as we knew was a reliable risk factor for suicidal thoughts and behaviors in men. But there were some really important kind of subgroup differences and sort of nuances in that.

Risk that we identified. The first is the influence of time and the fact that people who are closer in time to the core event or the core upheaval of their relationship breakdown are much more represented in suicide rates or at much higher risk of suicide. And that was sort of represented by findings that separated men were up to five times more likely to die by suicide on average relative to married men.

Whereas divorced men were three times more likely to die by suicide. So still a really high risk in divorce men, but highlighting separation as a kind of [00:04:00] key risky period, which I think makes sense in terms of the. You know, really profound emotional and, and sort of social impacts of separation, particularly if it’s the separation of a marriage and as you’ve sort of built a life with someone, it’s, you know, not gonna happen overnight that you’ll just get over that.

So that, that was a really big finding. And we also, in terms of understanding how we explain this link, why is there such a strong risk of suicide following relationship breakdown in men? We really found that there wasn’t that much sort of specific research looking into it, unfortunately. But what we did find is an influence of several key factors in potentially differentiating men’s risk.

The first of those being. The really common interpersonal impacts of a breakup where I think often as with time, as relationships grow more serious, it, it can be that we spend a bit less time investing in, in our connections outside of that relationship, [00:05:00] such that when that relationship breaks down, it can mean that we have less connections to turn to for support and, and everything like that.

And so what we found is that loneliness and isolation and loss of social support, these seem to be factors that play a role in some men’s suicidality posts broker. So again, really highlighting the importance of, you know, any source of connection that, that people can have. Once a primary, you know, romantic connection breaks down.

Those connections can help to buffer that sense of loss and, and isolation. So that’s the interpersonal piece. And then the other main factor that we found a role in men’s suicidal thoughts and behaviors post breakup was a really profound role of emotion dysregulation, and particularly dysregulation of shame is a really common emotional impact of breakout for men.

And I think what that shows is in terms of why shame seems to come up post breakup for men, I think it shows. And you know, this, this applies regardless of gender, but I think there are some [00:06:00] specificities here for men where identity is often derived from our intimate relationships and our sense of who we are.

So for a lot of men, you know, the sense of being a man and, and of sort of purpose and meaning really comes from, you know, maybe providing for the family, maybe being the sort of, you know, living up to that standard of, of masculinity and deriving a sense of self worth from that. So I think in the event of relationship breakdown it makes sense that shame and sort of feelings of worthlessness and as though, you know, a key sense of identity and support has been lost.

It makes sense that that might play a role in some men’s risk of suicide post breakup. So again, really highlighting the importance of, I guess, healthy adjustment to relationship breakdown and really helping people to find ways to, to hold onto their identity and who sense of who they are. Outside of their relationship.

So it’s a lot in there. But in a nutshell or a very big nutshell, that’s kind of what what we found. 

Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So for, I mean, for the everyday person [00:07:00] trying to distill some of this research, we’re not trying to be alarmist, but what I was hoping to do is it just sparked a curiosity for me to look a little bit more into.

You know, what are some of the societal pressures that make it harder for men to cope? And it doesn’t have to be necessarily, that increases the risk of suicidality, but I think it opens up a dialogue around maybe emotions or coping stigma. You mentioned shame before, so even through some of what you’ve read and it’s not causation, we’ve got correlation with a lot of this.

Mm-hmm. And it’s not saying, like you said, you know, it’s a population wide research. Mm-hmm. What are some of the societal pressures that may contribute to this or do make it harder for men to cope that we can start talking about and exploring? 

Michael Wilson: Mm. Totally. So, really important question. And before I dive into that, I just wanna expand a bit more on, on the sort of point you mentioned there around not wanting to raise too many alarms in, in [00:08:00] people’s heads here, and sort of wanting to, I guess, clarify what this research has said, but also what it doesn’t say.

And there’s a couple of key things I just wanna iterate there. The first is that, as you said, this is population level research, so we can’t necessarily infer from these findings that. The relationship breakdown is guaranteed to lead to an increase in risk of suicide. For individual men, it’s an individual persons, or any anyone’s individual risk of suicide is influenced by countless individual factors.

What we’re really finding here is that relationship breakdown on average at a population level is an important kind of you. Signal for suicide prevention initiatives and public health interventions and things like that. So that’s important to keep in mind, especially for people who are maybe in a relationship with a man who might not be doing too well.

Maybe their relationship is, you know, having some, some troubles and maybe they’re thinking about breaking up or. Or something like that, and I may be concerned about that individual man’s risk. [00:09:00] It’s obviously a really important thing to explore, but this research doesn’t say that people should hold onto relationships at all costs.

I think what it does show is the importance of healthy adjustment to relationship breakdown, and not that we should, you know, avoid relationship breakdown at all costs, as I said. So in terms of, of yeah, the societal pressures and the role that particularly masculine norms can play here again, it’s, it’s really, really complex, but I think we know that, you know, we’ve come a long way in terms of normalising men’s expressions of vulnerability and emotional literacy and, you know, healthy coping with really significant life stresses and things like that.

Coming from a sort of, you know, archetypal norm of really stoic, self-reliant, emotionally guarded masculinity that, you know, is just not realistic for the day-to-day challenges of of life. And I think we are in a bit of a kind of teething phase at the moment where, you know, we’re expecting more from men than ever before, but maybe the extent to [00:10:00] which we’re.

Ready to, I guess, hear their emotional pain or provide a, a healthy space for it to be heard, maybe needs to catch up a little bit. And I suppose what I mean by that is I think. The way that masculinities and masculine norms can play a role here is not just in in men themselves, but also the people around men who are maybe saying things to them post breakup that can sort of reinforce these ideas that men cannot or should not be feeling.

You know, the really sort of difficult but normal emotions that they are feeling post breakup. So in terms of the, the interpersonal impacts of a breakup, I think it’s a really common narrative of support that people, you know, can often say to men, you know, just get back out there, get back on the horse.

Just, you know, to get over someone, you have to get under someone. All of these sort of stereotypes that I think are really common, but. Are really commonly disregarded. Like all of the young men I’ve spoken to in the interviews I’ve done, and everyone has [00:11:00] received that advice, but no one has resonated with it.

And so I think it’s important to, to, I guess, highlight here that the, the role of these masculine norms of men’s potential emotional immunity to relationship breakdown, it’s not just localised within men themselves, but these norms can be perpetuated by, you know, all of us without even meaning to sometimes.

So I think, you know, one of the key messages in terms of social support post breakup and, and what to say when you know, you maybe don’t know what to say, particularly if it’s a guy who you know, you might not expect necessarily wants to delve into the emotional upheaval of his experience and really explore that.

I think what you can say is, is time will heal and I’m with you until it does. Because I think. It’s the truth that time sometimes is the only healer, but connection is the main antidote to the shame that people, you know, may be really profoundly experiencing post broker. So I think, yeah, that’s a really important thing for people to keep in mind.

Marie Vakakis: I love [00:12:00] that time will heal and I’m with you. 

Michael Wilson: Yeah. ’cause I think like all of the young men I’ve spoken to, you know, most of them centered the role of time and that eventually with time they’ve, you know, progressed to a point of healing and of seeing they break up as a positive, you know, source of learning and growth and all of that.

It’s really just about finding enough sources of connection to keep you going through the really difficult, you know, upheaval period, which I’m not saying is easy by any means, especially if you know. The impact of the breakup is, is a lot more intense than maybe you expect it to be. But yeah, I just think that connection and sort of healthy adjustment to relationship breakdown is, is the really key avenue of, of support here.

Marie Vakakis: So, I mean, I really like that I, you know, I’m here with you, you know, time will heal. What are some alternatives? Because when you mentioned. The, you know, get on with it or you know, just jump back. I hear that and I see it in TV shows as well. Like just, you know, get back on the horse, just sign up on one of the apps and [00:13:00] mm-hmm.

And I don’t think it’s just with relationships that we do this, we really have. As a community, as a culture, a habit of trying to dismiss someone’s feelings by trying, we think it’s helpful. We think it’s positive. We’re like, oh, that’s okay. There are plenty more fish in the sea, or at least dot, dot, dot.

And we, we have these ways of skirting around it. 

Michael Wilson: Mm-hmm. 

Marie Vakakis: And I see when I see that in the therapy room and people talk about that, it feels so dismissive and they feel really alone. And so pe I don’t think we know how to sit with discomfort. Yeah. So do you have some phrases or some things that people could use instead?

Like what are some of the men that you’ve interviewed or even just as you are, I mean, you are, you’re living this research, you, you’ve been embedded in it for so long, you’ve probably got lots of ideas. What are some things people could say instead of just get back on the horse? 

Michael Wilson: Yeah. Again, I think the, the most powerful one I [00:14:00] have heard is, is the time will heal.

But I’m with you until it does sort of thing. Because I think, so one of the other studies I’ve done as part of this sort of program of work is interviewing young men about their sort of pathways of reaction and recovery post breakup, and really what, what helpful versus harmful social support looks like.

I think it’s sometimes, not necessarily about the message, but but the really powerful role of the messenger in sort of being able to really connect with men’s pain post broker. And what I mean by that is a lot of the young guys I’d spoken to firstly spoke about the key role of people who had recently been through a breakup themselves in providing a really.

You know, powerful, I guess, capacity to understand and know that really unique emotional pain. ’cause I think it, it is a emotional pain that’s quite unlike any other emotional experience that we go through. And I think that’s potentially why, particularly for young men who may not be used to navigating it, or maybe it’s the first really serious breaker.[00:15:00] 

It’s why it can be really, really intense. So I think there’s a really powerful role of, of people who have been through that to really connect and provide that peer support and to, to really validate and, and sort of, you know, create the space to really authentically understand what they’re going through.

I think. In what you were saying before, it reminds me of Brene Brown who has sort of spoken about how, in terms of, I’m gonna totally butcher like exactly what she said here, but the general vibe of what she says is we’re expecting more of men than ever before in terms of openness and emotional vulnerability and everything like that.

But we aren’t necessarily ready to hear what they’re. Already to, I guess, experience some men’s emotionality when it conflicts with this idea that a lot of us still have of wanting men to be strong and stoic and all of that. And so I think breakups are a really unique context of discomfort in some people of knowing how best to hold and [00:16:00] hear and respond to men.

Really significant emotional pain. Recognising also that in some contexts, you know, men’s behavior in the context of breakups or, you know, in the pathway to breakups is not pleasant and is inexcusable in some cases. And so I, I’m not meaning by any means that people, you know. Should always drop everything to support men.

I think it’s really complicated if, if there are, you know, behaviors in the lead up to the relationship breakdown that have, you know, made it really difficult for people to be there and actually provide that support if, if they’re, you know, not necessarily happy with what the behavior has looked like. So I don’t mean to minimise the complexity there, but I just think there’s real value in us.

As a sort of wider society, really learning how to hold a sort of empathetic, open space for men’s emotions and vulnerability, even if it is really uncomfortable for us to do that, and for us to not lean on these sort of tropes to just get men [00:17:00] to stop feeling what they’re feeling or just to get over what they’re feeling because it’s so uncomfortable for us to witness.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, it’s interesting. I’m not 

Michael Wilson: sure if that makes any sense. No, it does. That’s, that’s sort of the main thing I’ve been thinking about. 

Marie Vakakis: It’s interesting you mention that ’cause I did do a series, I think it was last year for Men’s Mental Health Week, interviewed a lot of male therapists and male researchers, and I can’t remember who it was.

If I can, if it comes to me, I’ll put in the show notes. But someone was saying something similar that if you do give this a go. And your mates laugh at you or tease you or it’s not received, then you’re thinking, well what was this even worth it? You know, my therapist Marie told me to go be vulnerable.

And I go and tell my mate, and my mate just looks at me like, what the actual heck and how rejecting and shameful that can be. So one bit is doing that work with a therapist or in a couple, and then it’s how do you find like-minded people? It makes me think of when I’m working with someone around trying to reduce substance [00:18:00] use and alcohol, for example.

Mm-hmm. Sometimes there are some friends or some things in their life they actually have to give up because it’s not supporting sobriety and you know, they might go with their mates. And I had one person comes to mind who some of the mates were like, oh, what, what do you mean? Or they, they didn’t know how to connect, not at the pub.

And one of the other mates was like, well, let’s find something new to do. And they started doing a regular run. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Some activities you do have to give up. And I think that’s really hard when we are already talking about loneliness and isolation to be around people who have positive or pro-social behavior or support changes.

Mm-hmm. And just how tricky that can be because if you’re trying, if you’re doing something different and it’s not well received, you feel even more isolated at a time when you’re already feeling isolated and you wanna connect. 

Michael Wilson: Exactly. Yeah. And that that is the exact sort of emotional impacts that I think.[00:19:00] 

This sort of advice too, just get over it and get back on the horse. That’s the impact that it seems to have on people who receive it. And just on that point of, you know, men’s connection only looking quite stereotypical in terms of, you know, getting together at the pub and things like that. Firstly, I don’t think there’s necessarily an inherent issue with that.

I think men’s vulnerability and men’s connection can take a lot of different forms, and I think we are maybe going a bit too far and expecting it to look exactly the same as maybe women’s connection and vulnerability and openness would look. So what I mean by that is some men, for example, you know, getting together and even, you know, sharing how their week was at the pub, for example, might be a really, really huge step and might, you know, conflict with all of the ideas and all of the ways he’s been raised in terms of what a man should be and should share and, and in what contexts.

So I think, you know. Baby steps in, in that regard. Like we obviously have a long way to go, but I, I don’t necessarily think there’s [00:20:00] anything inherently wrong with, with that sort of form of like shoulder to shoulder connection. Obviously, you know, my view is like, I’d love for there to be a bit more kind of personal, really authentic, emotional, you know, connection.

But obviously, you know, there’s, there’s a long way to go there. But I think in terms of like the masculine norms piece as well that I was talking about earlier. Another of the key outlets for men’s emotional expression post breakup in, in the young men that I’ve spoken to is often the women in their lives.

And I think there’s a lot of parts to that, but I think for a lot of guys there’s still a lot more comfort in, you know. Stereotypically, you know, feminine nurturing sort of influence where, you know, some men can just inherently feel more comfortable opening up about their vulnerabilities in front of women because of the potential, you know, for other men to ridicule or shame or, or not be able to hear that in an authentic way.

And you know, again, there’s nothing [00:21:00] inherently wrong with that, but I think what that, the implication of that is that if we can open up more opportunities for men to diversify their sources of connection to, you know, have, you know, more authentic, open, emotionally connected relationships with other men in their lives.

That is not only going to have benefits in terms of men’s individual sense of connection and, you know, buffering isolation and reducing suicide risk, but it’s also gonna have, you know, really profound implications for gender equality more broadly and masculine norms and, you know, reducing the, I guess I don’t like using the word burden, but reducing the expectation, I guess, on, on women too.

Be the emotional diplomats and managers and everything in, in men’s lives, especially in the context of, of a breaker. So I think, you know, in terms of the whole interpersonal support piece, I think there’s huge benefits could come from finding ways. For men to, to connect more authentically with other men in their lives, especially in the context of post breakup, you know, [00:22:00] recovery.

Don’t necessarily know exactly how to get there, but I, that’s the sort of, you know, utopia that I hope we can get to one day. ’cause I just think that’s like men’s mental health inherently exists in the context of men’s relationships with others and. Encouraging men. Again, to connect with as many different people as possible, but especially with other men, I think is, is going to benefit not only men themselves, but everyone around them.

In turn, 

Marie Vakakis: as you were saying that I do have a lot of people I work with who. Maybe don’t actually like some of those activities. And it makes me think of some of the early, I guess, feminist literature. I, I was reading that the systems that we’ve set up, it harms men too. Mm. Not feeling comfortable to reach out, or if you are not the guy who likes sport or going to the pub or drinking or it’s too overwhelming or too noisy, it leaves those people out.

And so I spend a lot of time trying to. Coach men [00:23:00] on how to actually invite somebody. Mm. To do something. And I see some extremes. I see some actually just their brains can’t think of an idea. Mm. And others have such a strong desire to connect that they wanna seem really easygoing. So they don’t offer anything because they don’t wanna be rejected.

So they might be like, oh, I’ll do whatever you want. It’s like, oh, can we catch up Friday? It’s like, sure, what do you wanna do? Oh, oh, whatever you want. And that actually. Puts the anxiety, it almost burdens the other person with the decision making. And so I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I get them to really think about in the invitation being really clear.

So not saying something like, Hey, I’ll be in the area. If you maybe wanna kind of possibly catch up. It’s actually saying, I’d like to see you, it’s been a while. I’ll be in the area if that works for you. We can go for coffee. Otherwise, how about Sunday? Like actually being really [00:24:00] specific and not dancing around it because people are busy, they’re time poor, they’ve got work study children, parenting older parents, like there’s so much happening that they might not.

Catch that bid for connection or that request, unless there’s that specificity in it. 

Michael Wilson: Yeah, I totally agree. I think specificity is great, but I also, I’m just thinking about, you know, particular times in people’s lives where it just can be so hard to find the time for this really authentic connection that people need.

And I think it, it just shows the. The complexity, like especially for, you know, maybe men that are navigate or anyone navigating separation, if they have young kids, for example. And, you know, because we know is a common thing, like relationship breakdown in the context of early parenthood is, is really common and, and relationship strain and everything like that.

And so I think again, on in terms of the interpersonal impacts and everything, if, if you are going through that at a time [00:25:00] when all of your peers are sort of forming, you know, their relationships are still progressing, you know, they, they are more time poor themselves ’cause they have their own kids and careers and everything they’re navigating.

So there’s particular times in people’s lives where it can be really, really hard to find the time for this connection and, and sort of support. So again, I think specificity in, in trying to initiate these connections, catch ups, whatever it looks like. But also I think specificity and clarity around, you know, for maybe men out there who are wanting to really connect and get something off their chest or, or, you know, share the feelings or whatever it looks like to be explicit about.

Wanting that and needing that support. ’cause I think that is a way that, you know, masculine norms and masculine traditions and everything can actually be a really, you know, positive source of influence, particularly in men’s relations with each other because we know that men are socialised to drop everything, to look after the needs of others and, and sort of everything like [00:26:00] that.

So as much as they can, I think, you know, there’s a lot of guys out there that like if you were to message them and say, Hey, I’m having a really difficult time post breakup. Would love the opportunity to catch up. You know, I’m free at this time. You know, I just need to be heard. Like, I think people would be surprised about the extent to which that, you know, and again, this might be pretty context specific, but.

Maybe I’m a bit too hopeful, but I think you know the extent to which a lot of men would immediately be like, of course, no worries. They might when they get there, they might not. You know, necessarily know how to navigate this, that conversation, how best to provide support, whatever. But dropping everything to be there as a first step, I think should be celebrated.

It’s really just about how to equip the sort of next steps to make it a beneficial space for hearing that distress and hearing that pain and, and providing, you know, helpful support. 

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I, I love that. One of the things I, when I work with men who have kids, I think one of the, and it happens [00:27:00] with women too, one of the things that gets overlooked is inviting that person over and every just saying, look, we can have dinner.

It’s a little bit chaotic. And then once the kids are in bed, we can, you know, we’ll have some time just us. And I think we’re so worried that. Someone’s gonna find what we’re doing boring or it’s not interesting, or maybe they don’t have ki like there’s all of these. We just make up so much crap in our heads.

Mm-hmm. Or, and be able don’t have the energy. And sometimes just that simple being with someone is a huge first step. And I think it’s such a good idea to, to reach out like you’ve suggested, and also be able to invite, sometimes it’s inviting yourself over. Or being okay with the mundane activities. I think when we were younger, I don’t know about you, but I miss those times when I would hang out with a friend in the school holidays, we had no plans.

We just, we hung out and we, someone would just, just walk around, walk around, Dole, 

Michael Wilson: go to the milk bar. Yeah. 

Marie Vakakis: Watch something, hang out, you know, on the bed kind of [00:28:00] talking or doing separate. And we just spent time together and I feel like there’s this pressure now for the, there has to be an activity. Rather than, yeah, come on over.

Or, you know, I’ve got half an hour while I walk the dog or a phone call, like, don’t underestimate a phone call to check in instead of a text message. So I think I love this. It’s really giving some ideas to the importance of that connection, which can mitigate that loneliness. Shame is lifted when we name it and we talk about it.

Michael Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it’s also, I’m just thinking as well about the, ’cause I think it’s a common, I guess, narrative in men’s mental health research more broadly. To put the onus entirely on men to seek help in the context of really intense. Distress or, or whatever’s going on for them. But we we’re having more of a conversation now about what happens to the men that do seek help and what does our, you know, narratives of support look like.

What do our [00:29:00] mental health services look like in terms of meeting the men, more men than ever that are coming through the door. So I think, you know, what we’re talking about here really comes back to that idea of, of the conversation needing to not end once people do reach out, but really. Making sure that there’s quality and not just availability of support at the other end.

That’s a, again, really complex picture, but I think highlights the importance of, of sort of the continuum and, and continual support really. 

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, it really does. It’s a really nuanced area and it covers all aspects of our life. So the research did. Is what intrigued me to have in the conversation with you.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But we could talk about this for so long because it really talks about gender stereotypes, mental health, emotional literacy, connection, community. There are so many things that go into maintaining good mental health and wellbeing, just like with physical health and wellbeing. And so the conversations [00:30:00] have to be nuanced and explore lots of different things because it’s not a simple.

Like with physical health, it’s not just you do one thing and tick a box. Mm, totally. It’s a way of being. Has this sparked, and maybe this can be sort of a nice way to wrap up, sparked any, like, how have you done things differently through learning about this as a researcher? What changes have you noticed in your friendships or how you adult, how you do life?

Michael Wilson: Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons I came to this topic was having experienced. Firsthand myself, the really, you know, everything we’ve been talking about around the discomfort of not knowing what to say to a guy who you’re really worried about, especially post breakup. Like I’ve really felt that, and that’s why I wanted to look more into, you know, the interpersonal impact of relationship breakdown and what role that might play in in suicidality.

And so again, I think what’s changed for me is really thinking about the [00:31:00] onus, you know, being. Maybe equally on the people around men post breakup to provide quality and not just quantity support, but also, you know, the onus on men to reach out. Like they, they’re sort of, I think, equal responsibilities there.

But also I think this research is just a starting point. There’s so many more questions that need to be answered, and complexities and nuances here as, as you’ve alluded to. So one, one complexity, for example, is. What if people don’t want to, you know, stay connected with a particular man in the context of his breakup because of his, you know, behavior in the context of relationship breakdown.

That is a, a reality that does happen. You know, it happened for some of the young guys I’ve spoken to, and it’s just, it’s so hard to know how, how to move forward with that and how to intervene. So I think, you know, there’s clearly a need for more research there to understand the nuances and complexities.

And 

Marie Vakakis: could you explain that a bit more? Like what do you mean when people don’t want to stay in contact? 

Michael Wilson: Sure. So, so I guess I have spoken to a lot of, [00:32:00] um, maybe not, not me, but quite a few young men in the research I’ve done who maybe their relationship broke down in the context of some patterns of behavior that were not acceptable.

So just maybe some more controlling behaviors, you know, some intimate partner violence and, and things like that. Which, you know, again, is really complex and is linked with suicidality and emotion dysregulation and everything in men in its own right. And acknowledging that is not ex excusing the behavior, but is potentially a way into to addressing it.

But you know, if that is the context of relationship breakdown, then it makes it really hard to say that people supporting men need to just be there and provide immediate support and all of that because, you know, how can they do that while also. You know, keeping in mind the difficulty and, and not wanting to, you know, condone really, you know, problematic behaviors.

So it, again, that’s just a, a common, I think, story out there that is not really reflected [00:33:00] that much in the research, and especially research in suicide prevention where people who are suicidal, like are often only positioned as, you know. Sort of victims of the, of the circumstances that have befallen them.

And that is true, but also at the same time, multiple truths can exist and the people who are suicidal, maybe in the context of their suicidality have, you know, harmed others because of the distress that they’re feeling. So again, these are all really complex interactions that are just heightened in the context of relationship breakdown.

And so, you know, in terms of where this is, is taking me next, it’s something that I am wanting to look into more, like what are the interactions here in terms of, you know, what role does the context of relationship breakdown and why it has broken down, what role does that play? In the interpersonal impacts and the shame and the loneliness that comes up afterwards that then might flow onto risk of suicide, if that makes sense.

The other thing that I think has, has sort of come up with this, and this [00:34:00] again may might be a nice to point to to end on, but is that relationship breakdown again, I think. People might see the link with suicide and go, we just need to build healthy relationships and stop them from breaking down. And I think obviously, you know, there’s more work to be done in terms of building and normalising healthy relationships and how to cultivate those and how to maintain them and all of that.

That’s really important. But I think the reality is that, you know, one in two marriages will end in divorce. Relationship breakdown is just a normal fact of life. Which, you know, is to say that it, it can be a really distressing experience, but it also can lead to really profound positive growth and learning and, and resilience.

So one of the young guys I spoke to, for example, for him, because of some underlying trauma that he’d experienced and it really, you know, difficult life, he. In his path to breaking up, he felt that the worst thing that could ever happen for him was for his relationship to be taken away because of his profound [00:35:00] sensitivity to rejection and fear of abandonment and all of these really deep seated kind of core beliefs.

But when his relationship did break down and he got through that, he then found a really key source of resilience and learning and positive, you know, development and growth. And he said to me, he just feels like a fucking powerhouse now because he has been able to get through what was the most intense emotional upheaval of his life, such that he has, you know, realistically experienced post-traumatic growth off the back of it.

So I think, you know, all of this really highlights the importance of healthy adjustment to relationship breakdown so that people can get to that point of, of positivity and learning and, and acceptance, and just the importance of ensuring that a suicide doesn’t cut short that path of growth that someone might be on.

We just need to, you know, keep them safe until they can get there. So I have hope, 

Marie Vakakis: I think. Yeah, that is, that’s a really nice way to sort of maybe wrap it up is [00:36:00] that you have seen people have that post-traumatic growth. Mm-hmm. And. Navigate difficulty and come out on the other side and some people reach out for support and be connected.

I mean, this is, this conversation could go on for hours because there’s so many intervention points that we can support people with distress. And then along the lines along the way. So, yeah. Thank you. I, I think we could keep talking forever. 

Michael Wilson: Yeah, this, there’s so many different threads that are opened by this, but yeah, no, thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity to, to go down some of those threads together 

Marie Vakakis: and people can find more information about you. Where can they go and where can they find more about the research? And I’ll pop any relevant links in the show notes as well. 

Michael Wilson: Sure. So the big study that I’ve been talking about that is free to reads online, that’s open access.

It’s very long dense document. So you know, enter at your own risk sort of thing with that one. But yeah, that one I would encourage people [00:37:00] to read. Also, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I share a lot of updates there on, you know, my research, but also at our wider teams research at Origin in young men’s mental health.

So, yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect, but also happy for you to put my email in the show notes if people wanna reach out with any, any questions. More than happy to help. 

Marie Vakakis: Awesome. Well, thank you for your contribution to the literature. It’s, it’s not such a boring article. It’s okay. 

Michael Wilson: It’s just very long and dense, so, you know.

Yeah, 

Marie Vakakis: that’s the researchy bit. There’s a researchy bit. That’s okay. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much and hopefully this has given some people I know, some tips or ideas on how to. Support men’s mental health and relationships, and if you are worried about someone having suicidal ideation, I’ll put some links in the show notes to some services for that as well.

Michael Wilson: Great. Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the [00:38:00] Conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll share tools, tips, and insights. There’s a link in the show notes.

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