[00:00:00] Marie Vakakis: They say the grass is greener where you water it, but what if you’re not even sure you wanna stay in the garden? Relationships can be complicated and sometimes one or both partners feel uncertain about whether to stay or leave. That’s where discernment counseling comes in. Unlike traditional couples therapy, which focuses on working through issues to improve the relationship, discernment counseling helps couples gain clarity and confidence about their next steps.

[00:00:28] Marie Vakakis: Whether that means staying together or separating with a greater understanding. In today’s episode, I’m joined by Anne Carter, a compassionate and experienced therapist who helps couples through discernment counseling. We explore some of the myths around couples therapy, how to encourage a hesitant partner to consider counseling.

[00:00:46] Marie Vakakis: And the surprising ways this process can help couples no matter what the decision is they ultimately make. If you or someone you know is feeling stuck in a relationship, this conversation is for you. Hello and welcome to this Complex Life. [00:01:00] This is part of a series all around couples therapy and relationships, and one of the big myths that I see around couples therapy is that.

[00:01:09] Marie Vakakis: It’s one person bringing in the other person to either tell ’em everything that they’re doing wrong or to break up with them. And sometimes that’s not at all what happens. Most of the time it’s not what happens. And today I’ve got a very interesting conversation for you around discernment counseling, and you’ll hear about that in a moment.

[00:01:28] Marie Vakakis: But I wanna welcome to the podcast, Anne. Hi Anne. Hi Marie. Can you tell us a little bit about discernment counseling? ’cause it’s different to regular couples therapy and you’re also a Gottman trained couples therapist, which is how we met. What’s discernment Counseling. And I had never heard of it until I met you, and I think it’s very interesting.

[00:01:49] Marie Vakakis: Tell me about it. What is it? Yeah, 

[00:01:52] Anne Carter: so Discernment counseling is a way of being able to work with couples where they’re not on the same [00:02:00] page. So there might be one person who really wants to strengthen the relationship and work towards doing everything that they possibly can to get the relationship back on track, but the other person isn’t even sure that they wanna be in the relationship.

[00:02:15] Anne Carter: So it’s really designed for those couples where there’s one person who’s sort of leaning in and one person who’s leaning out. I think that that sort of is probably who it’s sort of. Is specifically designed for, it was designed by Bill Doherty, a guy at Minnesota University with this sort of group in mind, because there really isn’t other processes for working with these couples.

[00:02:43] Anne Carter: I. 

[00:02:43] Marie Vakakis: How do people like find that service? Because, I mean, I’ve had couples where they come in and the Gottman assessment that we use is quite comprehensive and they, they kind of groan about it ’cause they’re like, well, I just wanna know if I even wanna make this work. Mm-hmm. How do you know what to [00:03:00] expect when.

[00:03:01] Marie Vakakis: You are looking for a therapist. ’cause no one’s gonna sit there and Google discernment counseling. They probably wouldn’t have known that until today. How do people kind of, or how do you sit with Yeah. How, how does it all kind of figure out? ’cause I, I think that’s not an unusual or uncommon presentation for people to think.

[00:03:19] Marie Vakakis: I know we’ve had some trouble and I’m not sure if I want to do the work or be vulnerable or give something I don’t feel I have. And so there’s a bit of a standoff. 

[00:03:29] Anne Carter: Yeah, so I guess that, you know, it can come up because people have seen discernment counseling on my website, so they’ve read about it there and they’re thinking that actually that feels like it would be more appropriate for them than jumping straight into couples therapy.

[00:03:48] Anne Carter: Sometimes it is something that comes up as I do the, that comprehensive Gottman assessment. It might come up that somebody isn’t actually sure that they [00:04:00] want to be working on the relationship, and in that case it can be useful to be able to, instead of just sort of going forwards straight into the couples therapy where the two of them have different agendas, being able to take a.

[00:04:17] Anne Carter: A pause on that and then being able to look at whether they do want to restore the marriage, whether that that’s something that is a shared goal. If they can get on the same page. Sometimes people will ring up because they have separated and they might have seen my website and they’re thinking that they would like separation counseling, and that’s actually not something that I do.

[00:04:43] Anne Carter: But sometimes I’ve been able to. Say to them, are you sure that that’s what you wanna do? And sometimes, and it’s really not at all uncommon for couples that are separating, for there to be uncertainty around that still and [00:05:00] being able to talk through discernment counseling as. An option can sometimes be something that they say, yeah, actually that would be really helpful for us to have a third person in the room as we try and navigate this uncertainty.

[00:05:15] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I’ve got a few of those and it’s such a privileged space to be in to help someone navigate that. Oh, absolutely. As you were talking, I was picturing a fictional scenario. I’m gonna throw this at you and see how we unpack it, but I, I’ve seen. Both in couples, in individual, in professional and personal context where it’s kind of like a grownup or more advanced version of when you’re having a fight with someone, you’re like, fine, just leave.

[00:05:41] Marie Vakakis: And you really actually don’t want them to leave. You want them to stay and fight for you. I. And I’ve seen this happen, and it happens in movies, but not worth as much kind of richness to the storyline, but where someone will be like, well, fine, maybe we should just break up. Mm-hmm. And they actually don’t want to.

[00:05:58] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. But they’re throwing that out there into [00:06:00] the conversation, hoping the other person sees that as, oh wow, I’ve really hurt you. Mm-hmm. For it to get to this. Let me step up. Yeah, but it never actually happens. The other person doesn’t catch that with a, oh, this is, this is you waving at me saying, pay attention to my pain.

[00:06:18] Marie Vakakis: Mm. They’re like, well, fine. If that’s what you want, then fine. And before they know it, they are actually breaking up or going through this process. But neither of them really wanted it. They thought that’s what the other person wanted. Or it was used as, not as a, a threat, but more of a, a sign of. I don’t know if I can do this conversation right now.

[00:06:38] Marie Vakakis: I want it done differently. 

[00:06:40] Anne Carter: Yeah. 

[00:06:40] Marie Vakakis: Do 

[00:06:41] Anne Carter: you see that happen? Like is that a Oh, absolutely. And I think that people getting to this sort of state in their relationship is not something that anybody ever wanted. And being able to seriously look at this question of, is this [00:07:00] relationship going to be something that we continue to work on, or are we separating?

[00:07:05] Anne Carter: That’s something that, you know, we definitely don’t wanna have that decision made in the heat of the moment or the heat of a fight when neither person is functioning at their best. Like, you know, we all know what it’s like to feel that sense of being in survival mode, and we are not functioning at our best in those moments.

[00:07:25] Anne Carter: So being able to make a decision around the relationship and. The different options that there might be, rather than it sort of feeling like it’s black or white, it’s stay or go, it’s good or bad. It’s yes or no, me or you. We definitely don’t wanna be making decisions about the future of our relationship or our family in that sort of escalated state, 

[00:07:52] Marie Vakakis: I think, and it’s been coming up a lot in the conversation I’ve been having for this series.

[00:07:57] Marie Vakakis: We kind of expect or hope that [00:08:00] our partner knows what we want. And if they don’t know, then they don’t genuinely want it. So we want them to want to do something, not because we’ve said it, but because they want to want to do it. And I picture this being one of those things as well of sometimes someone saying, well then let’s just go to couples therapy.

[00:08:17] Marie Vakakis: And they really want their partner to say. To magically have the skills or the knowledge or the resources to have a different type of conversation and sort of, I know, piece these clues together of I’m not, okay, I’m struggling. If only you could just dot, dot, dot. And before you know it, they’re sitting on one of our couches having these big conversations.

[00:08:40] Marie Vakakis: Mm, 

[00:08:41] Anne Carter: yeah, absolutely. It’s a really tough place to be and I know that there’ll be people who are hearing. And they will be in that space of feeling stuck, unsure, and trying to sort of, you know, one [00:09:00] person sort of wanting to do whatever it takes and the other person not being sure. So yeah, being able to find a way into a space where they can get the help that they need and the the right sort of help that they need is really, really valuable.

[00:09:17] Marie Vakakis: Do you notice any particular patterns? When I was researching for a workshop that I ran recently for couples, a lot of the research was saying it’s actually rarely one big thing, one big incident that people recall as breaking up the relationship. It’s lots of little moments of missed opportunity and are drifting apart.

[00:09:40] Marie Vakakis: In your experience, what are some of the things that bring people into discernment counseling? 

[00:09:45] Anne Carter: I guess that there are absolutely are patterns and it can be really useful to unpack that. So for example, the leaning out person might have got to the point where they are feeling [00:10:00] like being in the relationship is just not working, and they see that outside of the relationship they have freedom from all of the sort of.

[00:10:14] Anne Carter: The responsibilities, the ties of being in the relationship, and so there can be this sort of sense of liberation. If I’m not in this relationship, I’m going to find that I’m happy again. I’m sick of not being happy. If I can be happy again, maybe I’ll meet someone else. That sort of sense of freedom can be.

[00:10:37] Anne Carter: A space that a leaning out person might be in. Then another stance that the leaning out person might be in is, I just can’t do this anymore. So maybe there’s a whole lot of escalation, lots of high volatility, high conflict, and they’re just saying, I just can’t do this anymore. But sometimes the leaning out [00:11:00] person has sort of got to a point of reluctant letting go, like.

[00:11:05] Anne Carter: I don’t really want to separate, but I have no hope that this could be any different. So there can be that sort of space. The leaning in person can also have their own patterns, for example, around being really anxious and finding it really hard to not. Sort of pull other people into the sort of picture, like, how can he be doing this to me?

[00:11:30] Anne Carter: How can she be doing this to me? How can they be doing this to me? Um, bringing in sort of the big guns of the in-laws or the close friends and that sort of thing, and really not functioning in their best person and sort of hoping that the person who’s leaning out can still somehow meet their emotional needs in the way that that.

[00:11:53] Anne Carter: Leaning out person just can’t at that point because of the place that they’re in. So what’s 

[00:11:59] Marie Vakakis: the hardest [00:12:00] part of helping couples navigate this? Because if they’re coming for discernment counseling, it’s not, I. The conversation’s not hidden behind, you know, like, we’re just gonna go couples therapy and they’re gonna drop this bombshell.

[00:12:11] Marie Vakakis: Like if they’ve actually booked in discernment counseling and they’ve talked about it, there must be some awareness, at least for one or both, hopefully for both, that they’re not sure if they want to stay together to work on the relationships, so they’re coming to someone to help that conversation happen.

[00:12:28] Marie Vakakis: What’s the hardest part of that for, for couples and, and for the work that you do? 

[00:12:33] Anne Carter: Yeah, look, I think that the hardest part for couples is that it’s a really painful place to be for both people. The leaning out person hasn’t just woken up one morning and thought, oh, maybe I’d be better off at not in this relationship anymore.

[00:12:49] Anne Carter: As you mentioned before, it’s, you know, often a long period of time of becoming more distant and sort of finally being at this point of maybe, maybe it is [00:13:00] time to let go. There’s a lot at stake. And then for the other person too, there can be a huge amount of anxiety. They’re really wanting the relationship to rebuild and strengthen, and instead they’re seeing the risk of it actually ending.

[00:13:18] Anne Carter: So there can be a huge amount of. Anxiety there and a lot of misunderstanding between the two. And every time they try and talk about it, they end up hurting each other or getting their wires crossed. So being in discernment, counseling, you know, I really love the structure of the way the sessions are set up because each session.

[00:13:44] Anne Carter: Has time with the two partners together, then time with one of the partners, just me and them on their own, and then we have time together again when they have the opportunity to feedback to the other [00:14:00] person some of what we’ve talked about. Then I spend time one-on-one with the other partner, and then at the end there’s that time together again for feedback.

[00:14:10] Anne Carter: So it does mean that both of the partners are really feeling like they have the opportunity to be heard. In a way that maybe they just are feeling like there’s just no way they can be heard by their partner without that sort of support and being able to speak clearly in their little feedback time so that the other person can hear maybe for the first time what’s really going on for that person.

[00:14:39] Marie Vakakis: I’m picturing again that kind of made up scenario of really just hoping the other person will see this as a sign to step up. And a really young, immature part of myself would almost wanna be like, so Anne, can you just tell him to do this so I don’t have to ask for it? But. In our work, especially in this, [00:15:00] in the more, in the Gottman approach and, and some of the other ways of working.

[00:15:04] Marie Vakakis: We’re trying to create a dialogue between the couple. And so while there might be this urge to bring in a third person to kind of play like whispers and be like, why if only they would just do this and why can’t they pick up the hint? I think it’s, I mean, I would find it still very confronting to sit in that vulnerability and actually have someone say, I need you to tell them.

[00:15:25] Marie Vakakis: How you felt and why that was important to you. And do you find that some people don’t have the either emotional maturity or the ability to self-regulate? Like there there’s a part that’s I. External to the couple that they need to work on or get some support around to be able to show up in a way that makes these sessions very productive or fruitful.

[00:15:50] Anne Carter: Mm. So certainly in terms of the emotion regulation, that’s one of the things that I’m able to work with [00:16:00] the individuals on in the one-on-one time, if they’re understanding how much that’s getting in the way of. You know, being able to have the partner hear them or being able to express themselves and being able to bring some grounding strategies in and for them to understand the importance of those, then absolutely that can make a big difference in being able to say, okay, for the sake of the relationship, I am gonna absolutely do my best here to get grounded to breathe.

[00:16:36] Anne Carter: To not be able to sort of deescalate and not having these sort of conversations in a really escalated state. The other thing too is that just the fact that there’s a third person there can be really, and the structure of the sessions gives a real sense of security. Both partners feel like. They are being held [00:17:00] and are able to maybe express things in a way that feels a lot safer than when they’re just at home on their own.

[00:17:10] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I get that. What’s the hardest bit for you? Like, I know that there are some sessions I have and you walk out and your heart just feels heavy. Mm-hmm. And if you are not that we are trying to save all relationships at all costs, we’re helping couples get to where they need to be or reflect on where they.

[00:17:35] Marie Vakakis: But what’s it like? How do you sit with that saying maybe argument after argument or so many couples separate? Like how do you manage all those feelings and distress and big prickly things that show up in the room? 

[00:17:53] Anne Carter: Yeah. I think that because so much of the sessions are spent [00:18:00] one-on-one with the individuals.

[00:18:01] Anne Carter: The actual sessions, there’s not a huge amount of conflict, so that is not a difficult part for me. It’s also limited, like, so that you, you know, it’s sort of, it’s not more than five sessions and each session is just, will we come back for the next session and they say yes or no. So it’s not like it’s an an indefinite period of being in this state.

[00:18:28] Anne Carter: Probably. For me, the thing that I find the hardest. Is when you have a leaning out person who is unable to have hope for the relationship. So they have, you know, maybe this dynamic, this sense of I know that my life is gonna be so much better once I’m out of this. Marriage or this long-term relationship, I know my life [00:19:00] is gonna be that much better.

[00:19:02] Anne Carter: And you know, they might have friends saying, what are you doing? And in the sessions we are talking about the possibility of. The relationship might have, you know, they might have never had couples therapy before. The reasons that they’re imagining life is gonna be better outside of the relationship. And this idea of thinking that, you know, the grass is greener on the other side instead of the grass is greener where you water it when they are in that space of being really.

[00:19:37] Anne Carter: Fixed in seeing all of the benefits of separating and none of the potential downsides when they’re not seeing the opportunities for their own growth, either in this relationship or outside of the relationship. And there’s a sense that I have that [00:20:00] maybe six months down the track, they’re going to be regretting the decision that they made.

[00:20:05] Anne Carter: To leave or that they are going to find themselves in another relationship where they are repeating the same patterns that they haven’t sort of learned from the experience of the relationship that they’ve sort of. And when they come to see me, that’s probably what I find the hardest. It doesn’t happen terribly often because the process sort of, definitely sort of really works with being able to sort of address some of those concerns.

[00:20:36] Anne Carter: And sometimes, you know, there are much broader issues around why a couple might be separating, but that particular one is a difficult one for me. 

[00:20:46] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I totally feel that one, I think it’s, we’re very quick to try and fix another person and not look at the role we played. Mm. And being sort of family therapy trained, we look a lot at the system and the, [00:21:00] the what we can do.

[00:21:01] Marie Vakakis: And so much of, like, I do a lot of family work with lot of adolescent, and it’s a similar thing of just fix them. Mm. And. We can only control our parts. So learning what we bring, you know, maybe we weren’t watering the garden at all and hoping something different would grow. Like the role we play. We still might choose not to be in that relationship.

[00:21:21] Marie Vakakis: But really understanding, I. What we contributed or not, how we showed up, what decisions we made, like when we’re often not completely helpless in those situations. So I think that would be a really hard one to see a couple go off and worry that they didn’t take away things that might change their behavior in the future.

[00:21:40] Marie Vakakis: They just want. Blank slate. Start again and might repeat. Yeah. Similar patterns. Yeah. 

[00:21:47] Anne Carter: The goal of discernment canceling is actually clarity and confidence around the way of moving forward, and so being able to have [00:22:00] that clarity around. What’s happened to get the relationship to this particular point? And you know, what I might have contributed, like it might be that someone is thinking, you know, my needs never get met in this relationship.

[00:22:14] Anne Carter: And it can be really easy to sort of point the finger and say, you know, the other person isn’t meeting my needs, but maybe there’s some real opportunity for growth in learning how to ask. For our needs to be met. That’s not an, you know, it’s not an easy thing sometimes to be asking for our needs to be met.

[00:22:35] Anne Carter: And sometimes it’s about asking and sometimes it’s about the way we’re asking. So, you know, being able to learn some of those things is really valuable. I’m, 

[00:22:49] Marie Vakakis: I can’t help but replay some of my own arguments in my head, but as you’re saying that I can really picture the struggle that some people have of, you know.

[00:22:57] Marie Vakakis: Don’t, you know, I’ve had a bad day. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] And that’s not helpful, right? That’s a harsh startup and it’s straightaway critical. It’s so hard to say. I’m feeling really. Dejected or inadequate, and I love some words of reassurance that I’m on the right track. Absolutely. That’s so 

[00:23:17] Anne Carter: hard to do. Mm, so hard to do.

[00:23:21] Anne Carter: It’s hard to do even when the relationship is going well, and it’s even harder if your relationship is in a space where that connection has. Sort of been eroded over time, or there has been a distance growing to the relationship and there’s a worry that the other person isn’t going to respond in the way that we.

[00:23:46] Anne Carter: Would hope that they would. So you’re absolutely right that that vulnerability is really difficult. 

[00:23:52] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. ’cause we’re asking, we’re kind of asking more from them at a time when maybe they have less to give and we are being more hostile, [00:24:00] so we’re the ingredients there aren’t gonna make something really nice.

[00:24:03] Anne Carter: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And one of the things in terms of discernment counseling and working with the leaning in person is really helping them to be their best self. Because it can be so easy for them to be, you know, trying to desperately clinging onto the other person and the relationship that, you know, they really are not in their best place and bringing forward their best person.

[00:24:29] Anne Carter: And so, you know, helping them to see that and. Being able to help them to be, you know, potentially open up a safe space for their leaning out person, so that if they’re the person, their partner who’s leaning out, comes home and says, I’ve just had a really, really bad day, they’re able to, instead of saying, yeah, but what about my day?

[00:24:52] Anne Carter: You know, I’ve been blah, blah, blah. You know, being able to say, I’m really sorry to hear that. Tell me about it, [00:25:00] which. Absolutely. When they’re not sure whether the relationship is going to last or not, that can be a really big call, but if they can give that a go and see that, that has a very different response from the leaning out person.

[00:25:17] Anne Carter: Then the, well, what about my day? You know? Then that can start to create some shifts and can start to help the gleaning up person potentially have hope that things can change. 

[00:25:33] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. I love that. My final question, and this I get this. All the time, and it’s part of why I’m doing this series is how do you help someone navigate when maybe they want to go to therapy, but their partner does not want to go and they’re feeling stuck.

[00:25:51] Marie Vakakis: And this comes up, you know, I ran a workshop the other day for couples and one person attended on their own without their partner. And in the q and a section, we’re [00:26:00] literally asking this, like, I think we need couples therapy, but he just won’t go. Mm. Or he refuses to talk about it. Mm. How do you. Help someone navigate that.

[00:26:10] Marie Vakakis: So they might want discernment counseling or regular couples therapy, but their partner won’t go. Mm. 

[00:26:16] Anne Carter: I think that in some ways the discernment counseling is really helpful in that sort of space, because if you are, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it’s no more than five sessions and each session is just taken one at a time.

[00:26:35] Anne Carter: So at the end of the first session, I’m saying to each person, are you willing to come back for another session of discernment counseling? And it’s absolutely fine for one person to say, no, thank you. We’ve had this one session, but I don’t wanna come back for another. And that’s absolutely fine. So being able to have a sense for the [00:27:00] leaning out person or a person who doesn’t particularly want to have therapy.

[00:27:05] Anne Carter: Having that sense of I’m not signing on for something that’s big and long, but this is just one session. That can be something that feels a whole lot more doable. It’s nowhere near that sort of, it doesn’t have the same sort of sense of high level investment maybe. Than jumping straight into couples therapy might have, particularly if they’re not sure that they wanna be in the relationship or not.

[00:27:36] Anne Carter: The other thing too, is that I’m always happy. To, you know, in, in particularly before discernment counseling, to have a phone call with each individual, just to talk with them about the process and help them to feel confident in the process. And you know, that in itself can provide the reassurance for someone to be able to come along.

[00:27:59] Marie Vakakis: How [00:28:00] might they start that conversation though? Because I know I’ve seen this happen where it’s not that the other partner wants to end the relationship. Mm-hmm. They just want the fighting to stop or they want the distance to stop, or they’re just like, what’s the big deal? Or they might feel so much shame that they just shut down so they can’t even have a conversation.

[00:28:19] Marie Vakakis: Like, how might someone listen to this, broach the conversation with their partner about. You know, as a gentle startup in a, a healthy, helpful, mature way, 

[00:28:30] Anne Carter: I think it, you know, using a gentle startup, it might be, I’m feeling disconnected in our relationship at this point, and I’d love things to change. Would you be willing to come along for one session or would you be willing to just do the assessment and feedback of couples therapy?

[00:28:53] Anne Carter: So that it’s feels less intimidating Sometimes I’m working with [00:29:00] individuals because their partner won’t come along, but I think that, you know, we know that the best results, the best outcomes for couples is doing couples therapy, a couple’s worker of some sort, and so. Being able to work with one person can be useful, but part of the work that we might be doing if I’m just working with an individual, would be around how we can support your partner in feeling safer around coming along to couples therapy and you know, then.

[00:29:36] Anne Carter: I would be referring them onto a different therapist to do their couples work. But of course, every situation is very different in terms of the reasons why somebody might not be wanting to come along to couples therapy. Maybe they’ve had couples therapy in the past in a previous relationship that ended up breaking down and they don’t have confidence in the process of couples [00:30:00] therapy.

[00:30:00] Anne Carter: But that might not necessarily be a reflection of. The sort of couples therapy that they might be able to receive. Now, there could be all sorts of other reasons why that previous relationship broke down. And it doesn’t sort of speak to all couples therapy. 

[00:30:19] Marie Vakakis: No. 

[00:30:19] Anne Carter: So being able to sort of see the nuances, I guess, for the partner who’s reluctant to have couples therapy and being able to sort of provide support in, you know, sort of through.

[00:30:33] Anne Carter: The individual that I’m working with can be helpful. 

[00:30:36] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. I mean, yeah, I’ve had good couples therapy, terrible reportable couples therapy, and then a whole bunch of middle people who were just kind of average. But as you were talking, I mean, one of the things that came to mind is trying to have a give your partner like a generous, positive assumption that if they’re not able to have this conversation, there might be a good reason.

[00:30:57] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And then also another part of me [00:31:00] was like, well, if you are not able to sit with your partner and say, I’ve had couples therapy in the past and it didn’t go well, and I’m really nervous. Mm-hmm. The, the inability to have that conversation probably shows how beneficial couples therapy could be, that there’s something that either you are struggling with yourself in how to sit with the vulnerability and discomfort and how to talk to your partner about that.

[00:31:24] Marie Vakakis: So, you know, the irony of people shutting down often is actually reinforcing how beneficial the right kind of therapy can be to actually be able to sit with your partner and say, you’ve mentioned this a few times. Mm-hmm. And I, I’ve got no, it’s not that I don’t want to make things better, but the idea of couples therapy scares me, or I had a really bad experience, or I heard of a friend who went and they just got, got divorced, or the, their partner disclosed something awful.

[00:31:53] Marie Vakakis: So. We want to kind of create relationships where you can have those conversations. Mm-hmm. And then problem [00:32:00] solve it together because the not knowing is what can drive the other person crazy. Mm-hmm. The shutting down that stonewalling and if all of those, you know, the four horsemen are popping up mm-hmm.

[00:32:11] Marie Vakakis: That’s probably more helpful to then have the therapy. Yeah, absolutely. In a kind of funny way. Absolutely. As a kind of just to, to wrap up, what’s been the most surprising outcome in your work? Has, has there been something that you just thought, I did not expect this, this was so, yeah. Surprising.

[00:32:29] Anne Carter: Absolutely. So I guess one of the reasons that I love doing this work is because it is challenging. But it can also be incredibly rewarding. And I have worked with couples who have actually been separated living in separate locations, and they’ve got to the point where somebody has said, let’s just have a session.

[00:32:55] Anne Carter: Let’s just go along and have a look at this [00:33:00] option of discernment counseling. And through that process. They have ended up deciding that rather than staying separated as they currently are, they have decided that they will not necessarily say together forever, but that they are willing to commit to six months of solid couple therapy with separation or divorce off the table.

[00:33:27] Anne Carter: And. That through that time they’ve been able to reunite live back in the the house again together and be able to grow as a couple repair hurts from years and years ago that they didn’t think were having any sort of impact. Right. On the here and the now that it has been and getting. You know, for me to be supporting a couple to that place of, we’re actually really happy that we’re together again now and they’re working well [00:34:00] as a couple a team.

[00:34:02] Anne Carter: That’s surprising. Sometimes it can sort of look like there’s not much hope, but to sort of see down the track that. They have been able to reconnect in a very meaningful and special way is incredibly rewarding. So I love that part of my work. 

[00:34:18] Marie Vakakis: Oh, that’s really lovely. And what a beautiful kind of way to end the conversation.

[00:34:22] Marie Vakakis: You bring such a genuine warmth and compassion to the way you talk about the work you do. That’s, uh, it’s really quite lovely. I’m sure the couples that. Work with you feel so held in that space and can really sense that genuine care that you have for, for both those individuals and the relationship. Mm.

[00:34:39] Anne Carter: Thank you Marie.

[00:34:44] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me. If you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health, join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll share tools, tips, and insight. There’s a [00:35:00] link in the show notes, got a question you want answered, ship me an email or a dm.

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