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Marie Vakakis: Have you ever wondered what couples therapy is really like? Whether you’re curious about when to seek help, what happens in a session, or even if it’s the right step for your relationship? We’re diving into that today. Joining me is my Practice Manager from the Therapy Hub, Anne, who is our behind the scenes angel, genius. She keeps everything running smoothly and she is asking me the tough questions. She’s put together a really long list of some of the most common questions and sometimes unexpected questions that we get about couples therapy and I haven’t seen these. At the time of recording I was completely blind, I had no idea what she was going to ask me. Hello and welcome to this Complex Life. Today we’re talking about couples therapy and answering some of the questions you might have, some of the things that we get on our intake phone calls and I’ve got with me today my practice manager. A person who’s here, there, and everywhere, it sounds a bit like Roy Kent from Tebaso, but we’ve got as many swear words. And Ann has prepared a list of questions that I have not read all of them. so that we can get an idea of the kinds of things that people call and ask for about couples therapy.

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Anne: hopefully that we can get you some answers to these frequently asked questions. Welcome Ann. Thank you. So yes, we’ve put together all these questions from things that clients have asked, as well as friends of mine and some that I’ve been curious about. And hopefully Marie can fill us in on things about couples counselling and what a couple can actually benefit from. So Maureen, let’s. Who should get couples therapy and what would you suggest is the point of a relationship It’s a really hard one. I think some of the research that says that people wait five to seven years before they get support for their And I’ve known people that have separated or divorced that haven’t had any of this. counseling before making that decision. and I’ve asked them why and sometimes they just, they don’t have an answer. I think it’s a very interesting question. I don’t know why some people fall in love, want to get married, do all of that stuff. Then without that external support, make a decision that’s so big. I find that unusual, but it does happen. I think it’s understanding that relationships and communication are a skill, and we don’t all have that skill or sometimes we need extra skill. and having therapy.

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Marie Vakakis: you communicate differently or better, reduce conflict, maybe talk about the things that have remained unspoken or-

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Anne: And so you can use it at any point. I think a lot of people could benefit from it. some sort of couples therapy or even marriage counseling prior to making-

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Marie Vakakis: decisions.

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Anne: getting married. But you can do it DIY some of it yourself, so there are some really great books like there’s the Seven Principles.

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Anne: which…

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Anne: in the good one. There’s also the eight dates book. So there is something to that are self-help and if you get stuck or you feel like you need help to understand a little bit more about yourself, what your triggers are, your family history, like there’s a whole bunch of stuff that goes into.

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Marie Vakakis: conceptualising to individuals when we’re talking about therapy. So I guess at any point.

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Anne: benefit from it. But if you’re finding you’re getting stuck, if you’re finding that there’s or resentment, that’s probably a good time to get. extra bit of support. So following on from that, I think you’ve answered it to some extent. I’ve had people ask, did they need to have specific issues in mind sort of have a full framework of what’s or is it enough that things are feeling a bit off that they can come in? Yeah, that’s totally fine. In the session the therapist will help you work that out. So depending on the techniques and modalities they use, they’ll have different ways of helping you unpack what brought you in. There’s usually a catalyst. We might say something like, why now? It could be some of the most recent ones I’ve had is, “We’re about to have our first child or second child. Or I’m about to go back to work after maternity leave.” That’s been one that I’ve had a few. They’re looking in anticipation of some big changes to get on top of some of these niggling communication difficulties, or to maybe do a temperature check. We definitely can work out some goals together.

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Marie Vakakis: each person individually and I get a pretty good overall picture of what’s happening in terms of their individual mental health, conflict in a relationship, whether they’re using unhelpful communication styles, call them the Four Horsemen, so stonewalling, contempt criticism, stonewalling, contempt criticism, and defensiveness, whether there’s issues in sex life, managing

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Anne: you get to unpack that. You don’t have to do that. exactly what you want to get out. All right. You just mentioned Gottman therapy. That was a question for later, but let’s talk now. And what do you use? So it’s one of the most well researched approaches and doesn’t mean other approaches aren’t effective, but this one’s got a really good evidence base behind it and I like it for its assessment tools. It’s really, it offers a structure at the start that allows for a really good overview of how that couple’s going. So one of the analogies I use is if you went to the doctor with a stomach ache and they just, you said, look, I’ve got a stomach ache, like I know exactly what you wrong with my stomach? Like what do I need? You haven’t touched it, you haven’t taken any bloods. So the gothman has said… much likely it’s our version of taking the blood test, feeling the stomach, checking taking down some history, understanding any allergies, dietary issues. So then we know are we trading? irritable bowel, are we trading period pain? paintings are about to explode, like, there’s so many things that- creating an upset tummy or nausea. And so I like that thorough assessment process. I do pull in techniques from other therapies. And when you start to work with so many, some have different words for different things. I love a lot of emotionally focused therapy techniques, EFT, I bring some of those in. I’m also a clinical family therapist. a lot of systemic family therapy approaches in my work, and then I pick and choose. But the Gottman interventions have got some nice structure to them, and then I incorporate them. Some people don’t like that and I still use those techniques to inform the work that I do, but I might not introduce it as, here’s this worksheet and we’re doing it together. I have in the back of my mind a bit of a structure and some of the tools that I know are really helpful, and we implement that in a different way. provide a really good way of understanding. what’s happening in a dynamic. What I love about the way they work is a lot of the research came from the research that they did. observing couples. So they had what they call a love lab, very big brother. Everyone knew. So people would go to this apartment and they had things. They were taking urine samples, saliva samples, blood tests. They were measuring a whole bunch of stuff and coding their behavior. And then through that process, they were looking at everything from stress and arousal, handling conflict, if people are responding to bits of connection. Like they just coded all of this data and then came up with these interventions that they then tried to do. got more data from, so even the book, the eight. rates. They had people grow. Do the dates, provide feedback, do more dates, and then use some of those as case studies in the most recent version of the book. So there’s a really nice process there that feels quite containing. And I just came across it when I first started family therapy. I looked at some different trainings, and that one just fit really well. But I also do like a U of T, so I do bring a lot of that. And sometimes I recommend the book, Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson, and that’s a really attachment and connection. So then, would you say that people are coming in? Are there main issues? Let me say it from this perspective. Are there sort of a main set of issues? that are very common through most couples or is it that every couple is so. and it just comes down to communication styles that need to get tweaked. It’s a combination of all of those things. A lot of the similarities were around communication and being able to hold space for your partner, feel heard, feel understood, feel validated, and problem solve together. Then sometimes there are some really significant life stresses that stretch the most regulated person that think of illnesses, different things that we need support with or different tuneups with. And all the stories are unique and any two brains together are going to cause conflict and understanding that finding a way to work through those differences and. because there’s nothing wrong with finding, there’s nothing wrong with complete. How that’s handled is very different, how you repair from there. So there are some basic things that everyone could benefit from. And then there are workshops. I haven’t trained in running them yet. I have to pass my certification track first. The art and science of love, it’s a Gottman curriculum and there are workshops that people run that teach some of those skills. So you can do that. If that’s the sort of stuff that you want to learn. You can bring your problems to someone. But having said that, the different modalities, the biggest point of difference I think is, you’ve got to like your therapist. connect with them. It’s not going to feel great all the time. and it should feel a little uncomfortable. but not in a way that is the discomfort in the person. If that makes sense. Like going to the gym, lifting heavy weight or running really fast, it’s just the discomfort in the person. to feel a little uncomfortable and it’s supposed to hurt that’s where we get muscle growth, but you’re not supposed to feel so overwhelming, the anxious that you throw up because your trainer is an asshole or you don’t like them or they’re pushing you in a way that feels beyond your capacity, but then you can’t cope. So finding the right therapist is probably.

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Marie Vakakis: important or just as important.

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Anne: the way in which they work. So I think I’ve answered a couple of questions. You have and you’ve led to a series of questions that sort of a few people ask about. timing of these sessions. You mentioned a crisis, a family event, like being in a really dark space. Should a couple ways to step out of that, for instance, if they’re not getting enough sleep because of a small child or a family member’s health crisis or this, should they wait until they’re a little bit out of the deepest part? before they come for therapy or is that the ideal time to be coming? They’re not contraindications. So what would you consider contraindications for couples therapy would be a kind of severe psychotic state, severe substance addiction, or an active affair. Like there are some things that it’s not a good time to work on. There hasn’t been anything I’ve come across that says.

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Marie Vakakis: maybe in like, complete crisis.

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Anne: different kind of support. But still reach out. for because some of those things could go on for a long time. So I think nutting out your specific situation with the therapist can be a helpful first step. And I know if it reaches the test, the limit of what you know, we book in kind of a consult call with different therapists to kind of see they can.

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Marie Vakakis: those more personal questions.

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Anne: That’s probably all that we can answer in a general advice. But if it’s an ongoing, like you’ve got a newborn baby crying, they might not sleep for five years. So how are you really going to? And maybe that’s a time where that sleep deprivation can do so much damage to the relationship if you’re not feeling hurt and supported and understood or your.

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Marie Vakakis: feeling resentful and contempt is building, that can be a.

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Anne: really like a snowball that keeps kind of growing. That can be really hard to slow down or stop if we let it grow too. So if you’ve already picked up the phone or if you’re Googling it, it’s telling you that. you’re curious, and it might be. as soon as the thought pops into your mind, I would kind of go with that. Okay. So don’t push it down if it’s there. If you’ve got enough brain space to have the thought, make a call. And so with that. I’ve had a couple of people that they’re going through, they’ve realised they need their own therapy, and they’re about to sort of enter that journey themselves. sorry, some relationship stuff, some of which it is overlap, some of which is just life. Should they focus on one or the other to begin with or can they kind of start through separate streams? or would that be a case by case that you need to make a phone call and

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Marie Vakakis: With an ideal scenario, I think that’s totally fine. What’s prohibitive for us is often finances. But if someone has their own finances, then they can’t afford to pay for it. therapy and their understanding themselves better. Maybe they were. their attachment, style, they’re learning about their triggers, their traumas, balancing their own mental health, managing anxiety, regulating themselves. Like there could be a whole bunch of work that’s really important for them to do to then be able to sit in the space and tolerate the discomfort of the.

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Anne: conversations in the couples therapy. So the couples therapy space won’t teach you all of those individual skills in the same way. We might tap into a little bit of them especially around like cooling off and regulating in conflict. You might need to do your own work. And so if you can fit it in and you can afford it, great. And if you give permission for your therapist to maybe do a bit of a or a hands-over so that your individual therapist kind of knows what’s happening, that’s fine. Each one will have their own way of working and what consent forms they need and what they’re happy to share based on how they work. So I think it’s really good and sometimes I recommend that some people pause couples therapy or they go do some individual work because some of the extra skills on their end to be able to have those more difficult conversations. coming if they are in or thinking about being in an open relationship. So it’s not just straight to like they can, that’s issues that can be discussed. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve had couples come in who are in open relationships. I’ve had couples come in where they use the couples therapy process to work out if that’s the right step or to have conversations around what that might look like. And then I’ve had couples come in where they might have a structure, whether they have a primary relationship and then want to work on that within the context of also having other relationships. So not all couples therapists.

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Marie Vakakis: or work with polyamory.

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Anne: or ethical non-monogamy. find someone who can. something that can be worked with, and that’s something that we do support here. Then you mentioned psychosis and I think affairs, would you ever have other reasons for dissuading a couple from coming to couple therapy? If there’s family violence, then that might require family violence services. Substance use that’s not in recovery, that’s almost like having an affair, the substance becomes the other person in the relationship. how affected that person is, and it depends on the skills of the therapist as well. So you can always inquire and say there’d be different specialties that people have, just like with individual therapy. I don’t work with all presentations. have expertise and training in all of those areas for all ages across all demographics. and couple of therapy, if anything is actually harder because it’s two people, two brains together, bringing all their stuff into one room. So. at least make the phone call and get some guidance around, “This is what’s happening for us, is now a good time,” and then you can make a decision.

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Marie Vakakis: based on what that person says.

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Anne: So if you’ve got a partner who maybe they’re not well enough for therapy or they don’t want to go, you can still do a lot of work that is couples related and conceptualised your goals are directly related to the way the relationship’s functioning, that can still be really helpful. So, you’ve got two different setups for couples therapy. You’ve got your traditional weekly fortnightly sessions. And then you’ve also run these marital couples counseling sessions over two or three days. to explain to people the difference between the two and how they might decide what’s best for them. intensive couples therapy sessions. So it’s just that couple and me in the room for two or three full days. We get about five hours of therapy on each of those days. There’s a whole heap of questions and pre-session information that they fill out. We hit the ground running. So we get a lot of information. It takes me several hours to read it all, compile it into something as reasonably coherent. So sometimes from saying someone weekly or fortnightly and then they’re busting. share all of this information and all these things are happening. By the time I’ve seen them again for the next session, a whole

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Marie Vakakis: And so it gets stretched out longer and longer. The marathon session does allow for a lot more to get done. And we get to implement things straight away. And also it is fatiguing.

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Anne: an insight as to what happens when one or both people do get fatigued. If they’re under pressure, what happens? Then how does their partner cope when they’re under pressure? We get to practice some of the regulating strategies. We get to see what might happen on a day-to-day basis at home. The assessment process, I still go through the same steps, but it’s a little bit more self-guided when it’s the marathon. We send a lot of the questions that I might ask in online, so it’s a bit more administratively intensive for them, so that I have all of that about a week or two before the session. And the more comprehensive that is, the more thorough my understanding of the of that couple will be, and then the weekly. I still do that sort of intensive assessment. The couple come in for a joint session, the got man connects a relationship checkup to do individually. They meet with them individually and then I meet with them again. So those first four sessions we call the assessment phase. A lot of that gets done.

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Marie Vakakis: leave for the marathon sessions. And that keeps being tweaked.

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Anne: feedback from clients, feedback from other practitioners. What I think’s been working or not working, and we kind of change and rearrange that process, but I’ve participated as a client in both. I actually liked the combination. So having the marathon session alone wasn’t enough. But having that intensity felt like a bit of a reboot and then having follow-up sessions after that was really helpful. So at the moment, the way we structure our programs is you get the marathon session and two follow-up sessions sort of as part of that package to allow for a bit of that. And then if people feel they need more, we add in those fortnightly sessions. that work that might take two, three months, maybe even four months if your calendars are really stretched for time. You get that done in a weekend. It’s also really great for people that come from interstate or regional rural communities, where they get to come in, they maybe get babysitters. Stay in accommodation and take care. a whole bunch of stuff done and then they go back to their life and implement it and then have the follow up sessions. So then with the marathon session, should people feel that they sort of only have those one or two issues that they need? discuss. Or can it be? as messy as it is for the traditional sessions. Like let’s just throw it all out there. It can be either. Yeah, absolutely. When I get all that paperwork, there are certain things that I might see is, red flags is not the right word, but that might indicate that the timing might not be right. or the therapy, like the marathon session might not be suitable. And then I would have that conversation with the couple as those issues pop up, or I might have an extra sort of half hour, 15 minute, whatever’s required. So zoom call or phone call to get a bit more clarity. So it’s not like you book in and rain, hail or shine into your appointment. There is a lot of work back and forth to make sure that you’re ready. that are achievable and we might have some of those. prior to the session being confirmed or going ahead. So, make the inquiry and we can sift through it together. There’s something there that you can’t, it’s not the idea. either timing or you’re not the ideal person for them. Yeah. I’ve had when there’s an affair that the person won’t disclose, when there’s an addiction that the person won’t disclose. Those are ones that the work can’t be done, I can’t have knowledge, we can’t have some person having an affair and coming in for couples therapy, that won’t work. even come up then. So it’s just more the partner, no side. you on and the other one won’t share detail. Is that what you mean? Or one’s put some information in the form that the other doesn’t know about. Sometimes it’s that or sometimes someone’s come in saying, “Oh, my partner and I will in an individual session first trying to suss it out and see if then couple. that there would be suitable and I’ve had to tell them no. And no, there’s no one I can recommend that would do that.

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Anne: couple.

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Anne: person has had an affair or is still having an affair without that being discussed. (speaking in a foreign language) Are any secrets or two? Can you? school have any secrets or should everything in a world be in the outer world for your partner? Well, I think that’s such a big question because secrets in different cultures mean different things and there’s different implications. So as a couple, I think that’s one of the conversations to have is what kinds of things do we share. It might be what’s public versus private versus what’s secret or not secret and what’s your really awful thing that happened to your sibling that they shared with you, that might be completely fine, but if it’s something around you and that’s impacting the relationship, that might not be. So I don’t think there’s such an easy answer to that, and sometimes it’s not safe. as well. And so there’s a lot of different factors, but I think building a good solid relationship, one of the pillars in Gottman therapy is trust. So we have trust on one side, commitment on the other. And trust has a number of different components to it. And knowing each other’s worlds, maybe not keeping secrets, having good boundaries, having integrity, not sharing. having discussions about all of those things might be what informs that pillar.

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Marie Vakakis: there the whole house can come.

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Marie Vakakis: And so, we’ll see you next time.

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Anne: So we’ve discussed marathon sessions versus the traditional sort of therapy, weekly therapy. A very common question is for couples that the marathon session seems too overwhelming so they wanted to go the more traditional, less sort of scary way. hour sessions with you, 80 minute sessions with you. But then they all. want to do that in the shortest amount of time. They’re kind of. tick it off the list and make it. and a very, very And usually from then is what’s the shortest amount of time I can do this in, if all goes well. I would say at least, and be 10 to 12 sessions. But if you sign up with me, you should expect that I’ll be in your life for about two years. So we have that initial intensity and then that might be weekly. And then we might think, look, things are going pretty well. Let’s move it to fortnightly. And then after that, it might say, let’s give it a month off. So there is repair, recovery and healing, and then there’s relapse prevention.

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Marie Vakakis: And so if we miss some of those steps, if people don’t come back or they exit.

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Anne: surely, it’s likely that some of those things will flare up again. I’ve had that happen. I’ve worked with someone recently, even the week that I’m recording this where I encouraged them to book it in, that we could, a few months went by. and she hit the fan again, and we had to have an emergency session, and I had to squeeze a few more, through trusting the process and looking at it as healing, recovery, repair, whatever is happening. assessment, active treatment, and then relapse prevention. And there’s no shortcuts to this. If you’ve been struggling in your relationship for 10 years, 10 sessions isn’t going to fix that. think about fitness, if you haven’t exercised in years, you can’t just get up and do a half marathon. If your base level of fitness is really high. yeah, maybe, maybe. with a running coach, maybe I can get to a half marathon in a 12 week training program because I run, but maybe someone else. No, they might not even be. case that could take them six months. So it’s an impossible question to answer. I think people really need to look at what’s happening for their own how maybe bad things are, how much conflict there is, and have some… expectations like you would for physical health. No, that’s true. And I was more just thinking that the ones that are asking me that question are probably the ones that actually need longer therapy than just. Yeah, because it’s confronting. Yeah, and that’s the thing. They know that they should. same way that I know that I should get up and practice for that run. But it’s too much, so they’re trying to work out. They’re trying to make their brain. the whole process in the easiest way possible? >> It’s not easy. It’s hardware, it’s vulnerable work, and it can be life-changing. and just like that. that say running, that takes. mental stamina, dedication, consistency. Like it actually takes a lot to make that work. And a relationship is work. The garden doesn’t grow if you don’t water it. You can’t neglect a relationship and expect it to grow and to thrive. And so if you’re thinking, what’s the quickest way I can get this done, maybe check in with yourself, but what’s that about? Because is that saying, I don’t value the work? And sometimes you uncover things that might create more work. You might do a couple of runs and then get shin splints. to go to the physio and fix that up before you can go running. So people seem to think we have this magic wand. And as much as I’m a fan of Harry Potter, I don’t know any magic. And no matter how many sparkly glittery ones I have for the kids I work with in the clinic, I can’t take that away that quickly. I wish I could, but relationships are messy and complicated. Humans are messy and complicated and so there’s no quick fix, there really isn’t a quick fix. So then after that initial stage, you mentioned sort of all the Gottman sort of feedback forms, etc. at the beginning. have sort of gotten over that initial hurdle, getting to know you, getting to know each other again stage? is a typical session. Watch… people expect from a session. I might check in with something from the– I’d be like okay, so and last week we left one. That’s it, your partner is here. Let’s call your partner, Francis. And Francis, it’s nice to have you back. How did you find last session? And then I might say, is there something specific that’s come up this week? And then based on what’s come up, I might say, look, I have a really good tool for that. we’re struggling with how to celebrate my child’s birthday. We have different ideas. I want a big party and Francis wants to have something small just as the family. And we’ve been fighting about it all week. Great. So then I can use one of the tools or techniques to unpack that conversation. So I might use one of the tools called.

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Marie Vakakis: conflict. So then I might say, “Look, hey, Anne in France is a really great tool.”

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Anne: that we can use to help guide this conversation. I might print it out or give it to you as a PDF or whatever, it depends how we’re doing it online, face to face. And then we might go through that. If you said, “Look, we had a big blow up about our kid’s birthday, and we haven’t spoken since,” or “Francis has been sleeping on the couch,” then I might do the aftermath of the fight. They’re like, “Great, well, how did you go repairing that?” “Oh no, we haven’t, we waited to bring it here.” “Great. Let’s talk about that.”

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Marie Vakakis: I give you some extra tools to have a different version.

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Anne: conversation. So I have a bit of a catalog of different tools and techniques and, and worksheets, like different things that we can do. And I might then add them onto a recent event. going on what we’re working on, then I might pick up a conversation thing. Okay. So one of the things really important is getting on the same page about whether you send your son or daughter to a private school. Let’s do it. Or you’re having difficulty with your sex life. How did we go with the homework from last week or what have you tried since? activity. And so long as it could be simply reinforcing a way to do that. speaking and listening that shows active listening. slide, perspective taking, validating.

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Marie Vakakis: or it could be if they’ve had.

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Marie Vakakis: We call the four walls when I didn’t make it up so I’m going to say aye. Contempt, criticism, stonewalling and defenciness.

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Anne: A lot of those have been showing up that week. Then I might use that session to let them talk about whatever they’ve been fighting about and then say, Hey, I’m just going to pause you there, Francis, what you just said to Anne that he’s one of those four horsemen that sounds like criticism. Could I get you to try doing it again? So I might even do a bit of coaching on how to implement these new skills, the soft startups to try and combat that criticism. So we’ve got the antidotes to the four horsemen. to what are the goals they said they wanted to achieve, what is the purpose for them.

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Marie Vakakis: coming and making sure we’re building up.

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Anne: the steps towards that, because my goal is to get them to not need me.

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Marie Vakakis: because I only give them the tools to.

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Anne: conversations on their own, not feel like I have. not an umpire or referee to every fight or conversation that they have. It’s building the capacity to have more and more conversations between them rather than each person talking at me. With that, would you have a set of non-negotiable ground rules? be lives? For instance, no yelling or something like that? Or is everything potentially a useful tool and while you would shut it down in the moment, it’s not necessarily a non-negotiable? LARLEY There would be some non-negotiables and sometimes they envisage. blessed with those at the start and some might even. look, last session this and this happened and we can’t let that happen again. So one of the is that both partners be here. And if one person comes in and the other is running half an hour late, then that person has to sit in the waiting room. So it’s couples therapy, unless we’re doing the and non-negotiable. So there’s no sneaky passing of information. one of them isn’t around. >> No, I’ve had someone email me, and I haven’t read it. I’ve deleted it and just- send a generic email back saying, “Unless you CC your partner in, read this email. So, you can see that I’ve got a lot of questions, but I’m going to move on. So,

00: 35:18,000 –> 00:35:19,000

Marie Vakakis: It’s couples therapy.

00: 35:19,000 –> 00:36:10,000

Anne: can’t have the me put in the position. in the middle of two people and one person sharing information about the other with. family therapy, I don’t let that happen either. So CC your partner in or don’t do any correspondence other than, “Here’s the appointment time, here’s updated credit card details,” or something like that. So there’s some non-negotiables. I’m pretty tolerant with, I’ve got a bit of a potty mouth, so I don’t mind a bit of swearing. You know, especially if it’s out of exasperation. But if it’s directed at me, that’s a boundary. If there’s name calling that, again, is mine, there’s Four Horsemen. There’s criticism coming through. We’re going to call that. out of my room, but he might be, I’m going to have to pause you there Anne, it’s not okay to speak to Francis that way. This is one of those things that we’ve talked about is.

00: 36:10,000 –> 00:36:12,000

Marie Vakakis: help for the relationship. So we can…

00: 36:12,000 –> 00:37:09,000

Anne: Bringing it back to that role modeling that helping that person find a different choice of words, understanding what happened in the lead up to that, you know, maybe explosion of, or distress, because if they had all the skills, they might not need to be here. one off completely, but we’re working on how do we communicate respectfully with intention, calmly, safely, so that we can have a richer dialogue to be able to talk about those things. So can you take science? This is one that. the friendship circle is. a lot of people were asking. They’re basically, “My partner is awfully unreasonable about this certain topic, like, surely any outsider will see how unreasonable it is.” Will they tell the partner? There are some practitioners who do that. I think Terry Reels I’ve seen some things about him talking about taking sides.

00: 37:11,000 –> 00:37:14,000

Marie Vakakis: an unreasonable request. But…

00: 37:15,000 –> 00:38:30,000

Anne: goals not to referee it is actually to get the couple to be able to talk about it themselves. So could you give me, could you make up an example? Let’s see if we can. Hi, fuck me on the spot. I don’t know. It’s about time, it’s a per- or a personal relationship. I’m trying to think. I mean, normally it starts from, I’m trying to think of like the friendship dramas. Normally it starts from kid related things because they’re the things that make our brain fry just immediately. And where it might be about parenting styles, where one is sort of very old school, whereas the other might be a gentry parent. And you can overlap the two, but occasionally you will just butt heads. And, you know, one will decide that their child will be a delinquent forever if they allow this to go, whereas the other one’s saying, “No, this is a, uh, just a difference of opinion. One is probably a more modern opinion than the other one. So it’s seen is correct. And again, that probably comes down to the initial. But yes, but it was gorgeous. Is she going to tell him that he’s wrong? No, because that won’t help. It won’t be helpful.

00: 38:30,000 –> 00:38:32,000

Marie Vakakis: trying to understand.

00: 38:32,000 –> 00:38:59,000

Anne: the Y, and the Y is the Y. Often people have the same goal in mind, but they have. different ideas of how to get there. So I’ll use an example of… one that’s come up for me in my sessions, private school versus public school. And they were like, no brainer, we’re sending in public. It’s like, no, no brainer, it’s private. Right. But you unpack what’s behind that. And one parent wanted their child, the one who wanted to send her to private.

00: 38:59,000 –> 00:39:05,000

Marie Vakakis: have opportunities that they didn’t have. They felt that they worked their butt off.

00: 39:05,000 –> 00:39:17,000Anne: to establish themselves financially. They had no financial help from their parents. had a university debt. And so they want their kid to be able to then use that same amount of

00: 39:18,000 –> 00:39:21,000

Marie Vakakis: and propel even further forward.

00: 39:21,000 –> 00:39:23,000

Marie Vakakis: valued the struggle and the love of God.

00: 39:23,000 –> 00:39:27,000

Marie Vakakis: their kid to be spoiled or not have value.

00: 39:28,000 –> 00:41:08,000

Anne: or be arrogant. And they had a story where people who went to private school, they associated with, like, rich English kids, very hoity-toity. And then we unpacked that through conversations. Their parents made conversations. about rich kids. Their parents made comments about, “Oh, look at those snobs or look, they’re good for nothing or what’s their car overcompensating for?” So they had this money mindset message around wealth being inherently bad and sending their child to a private school felt insulting to that story. They hadn’t even realised, it wasn’t until we unpacked those two stories and that took a couple of sessions and further conversation from them to actually that heart, they had values they wanted to instill, and then they had individual stories and histories that made those conversations so heated for them and so important to try and be heard and understood. And it was so fascinating. So it wasn’t up to me to just say, well, yeah, if you can afford it, just do it, or that’s ridiculous, those schools shouldn’t exist. They can get an education. Like it didn’t matter. It didn’t matter. because that’s symbolic of maybe dozens of other experiences that will come up in their whole lives as parents, maybe even grandparents. that the skill for them was in learning how to have that conversation. Where does that belief come from? Why do you have this position? What would it look like? And then through that, then they can So if we want our kids to have those experiences but not go to private school, maybe they sign them up to tutor inc.

00: 41:09,000 –> 00:41:10,000

Marie Vakakis: if they wanted their kid to be humble.

00: 41:11,000 –> 00:41:12,000

Anne: they instill a family.

00: 41:13,000 –> 00:41:17,000

Marie Vakakis: volunteer work or something else. I mean,

00: 41:18,000 –> 00:45:41,000

Anne: to go bushwalking him. So these are the values we have and how else can we get those values or try and teach those values to our kid. So there wasn’t an easy right or wrong there. Is he wrong? If, so in that scenario, it’s two incredibly well-meaning people trying to do the best for their family. a situation that’s a little bit, for lack of a better word, darker, where it’s one’s potentially a narcissist or you catch some. gaslighting in this situation where basically one is more controlling than the other. If it’s starting to be in that space and that’s probably in that family violence, domestic violence space where I would be getting individual support, having someone disagree with you is not gaslighting. Having someone have a different recollection of an argument also not gaslighting. told you this and we discussed it, not gaslighting. Gaslighting is a very dark and sinister, intentional way of having someone’s confidence be shattered and their trust in themselves. The word gets used all the time, but when we’re in a fight, when we’ve flipped our lid or we’re in high arousal, we don’t recall what we said. We don’t recall that word for word. I remember having a fight with my partner at the end of the day and I was saying, “I said, you go He’s not intentionally saying, “She said I asked coffee, I’m going to get a juice, but when she asks me, I’m going to say beverage.” It was just an argument of a miscommunication on a hot day where we each just wanted different things to drink. That’s not gaslighting. I would be very careful saying someone’s a narcissist because that is a diagnosable psychiatry, illness, and that is a serious label. And people can be selfish, people can be self-centered, but that doesn’t make them. So I’d be very, very careful in people saying my partner is a narcissist or my mom’s a narcissist or my dad. Like that should not be something used lightly and it probably affects less than one to three percent of the population. And the frequency in which I hear it is huge. So I’d still be very, very careful. careful about someone who has no skills. experienced my diagnostic skills whatsoever, labeling someone as a narcissist, but I think that’s a conversation for the time. So, but then if one partner is potentially more controlling than the other, would they basically not be coming to couples therapy? Or would that be something? would try. I think I’m trying to ask, have you ever someone trying to kind of manipulate you to get more control over a partner and you’ve had to sort of shut that down and then disappeared soon after. Or is that just something so potentially common out in the world, but they’re not the people that are coming to you? don’t like what I have to say or they’re not prepared to do the work, they might not come back because it’s supposed to be a little bit challenging. it’s a little bit tough. You can’t lift heavy weights if you don’t lift heavy weights. So couples therapy won’t work if you’re not prepared to change or accept influence from me or from your partner. And so some people don’t like that. If you’re coming in expecting a referee or an empire, not going to work. And since we’re more vocal about that, since we have videos on our website, we have blog posts, there’s the podcast, the YouTube channel, people get more of an idea of. I’m not going to go to Marie because she’s going to call that out. In a gentle and kind way, I get less of. So look, it’s always a risk, it’s any two people and some things might take extra exploration, extra thinking. I do have regular supervision.

00: 45:42,000 –> 00:45:50,000

Marie Vakakis: vision. I have an expert couple’s therapist supervisor like of work that goes into conception.

00: 45:50,000 –> 00:46:41,000

Anne: assessing things. out how to help, what’s suitable, balancing each person’s individual needs. work goes into that. And I’m also human and there might be some things that get overlooked or change. And we do the best we can and we keep working through that. So based on this is one for all the all-quiet. out there and I’m one of them. A question that came up very often was, is she going to make me talk about my sex life? And do I have to? Or do I have to talk about my finances? Like, do I have to talk about the awkward stuff that I don’t want to talk about? going to sit there and say, “Tell me about your sex life?”

00: 46:42,000 –> 00:46:43,000

Marie Vakakis: necessarily.

00: 46:44,000 –> 00:47:29,000

Anne: me what positions you’ve tried this week. Like what’s your bank balance. minute says both people are happy with. life. Great. If it says one person is happy, one isn’t, then when we’re talking about what do we like to get out of therapy, I might reflect on it and say in the assessment or through our conversations, one of the things you highlighted was that you’ll say, “Okay, I’m going to get out. could be different and that’s something that I’d like to address in one of our sessions. So we only, we talk about it if it’s an issue. If one person is happy with the finances and the others, it’s indicated that I’m feeling overwhelmed. I don’t understand what’s happening. I want to be included more than. topic that we talk about. I don’t sit there and go through their budget with them. I don’t have to know how much they.

00: 47:29,000 –> 00:47:32,000

Marie Vakakis: But I will help the couple help.

00: 47:33,000 –> 00:48:00,000

Anne: types of conversation so that they’re both still they’re getting what they need out of that, whether that is budgeting together, whether that is understanding where expenses are going, whether that’s understanding what you know. 2 year, 5 year, 10 year pioneers. If it’s an issue, we can get the support. and we talk about it. – So then what happened? If I know we need help. and I feel like we’re ready, but my partner doesn’t. And I don’t want to come.

00: 48:01,000 –> 00:48:03,000

Marie Vakakis: How you ask is very different.

00: 48:03,000 –> 00:49:28,000

Anne: If you ask in a way of, “Francis, we need couples therapy because I’m sick to death of your shit.” No. If you say, “Oh, do you, maybe you want to try a couple of syrups?” They’re like, “No.” Very different to saying, “Hey babe, I’m finding it really hard to get my point across no matter what I say or I’m finding, you know, the point across.” stretched me and I’m just I’m lost for words and I can’t articulate myself well. I would like to get and get some support so I can learn some ways to do this differently. That’s a very different request than coming at it with blame or with criticism. So I think it’s having the conversation in a different way rather than. snappy, sarcastic, putting a book on their pillow and saying, “Read this,” because then we set the And we’re not going to get the response that you want. And I see this a lot because I get to work with couples. So I’ll be like, I asked him several times to do this. I’m like, okay, can you tell me how you asked them? And then I’ll check in with the person. Is that how they asked? Like, yeah, okay. What I’m hearing in that request is actually criticism. And that’s not going to help because as soon as there’s criticism, the other person stonewalls or gets defensive. there is room to have that conversation differently and to.

00: 49:30,000 –> 00:49:32,000

Marie Vakakis: want to learn different, how to.

00: 49:33,000 –> 00:49:40,000

Anne: better what you’re struggling with and then say, “Look, maybe offer some options.” I’ve narrowed it down to-

00: 49:41,000 –> 00:49:42,000

Marie Vakakis: I think would be a good fit.

00: 49:43,000 –> 00:50:42,000

Anne: like me to just book one or just send you their information too. go through have a bit of a dialogue about that. What are your concerns? That’s all we can’t afford. It’s like, okay, well, this is really important to me. So let’s sit down, go through our budget together so we can allocate some money. It might take. bit longer, but I’m prepared to forgo other things. to make this work. So it’s really having a mature conversation about it. And if you’re struggling to get those words out. maybe having a few sessions with the therapist. or nutting it out with a friend or rehearsing it. Even writing down some notes and saying to your partner, “Look, I really suck at this.” Or “I get overwhelmed.” Or “I just… my words don’t come out. So I want to talk to you about something that’s a little bit uncomfortable. after dinner. Sorry. Talk about when you’re going to talk about it and pull out the notes from your phone and said, look, I’ve taken some notes because I don’t want to get it wrong. You matter to me. This is the one. relationship matters to me and I’m trying so hard.

00: 50:44,000 –> 00:50:47,000

Marie Vakakis: just so that I make sure I cover everything.

00: 50:47,000 –> 00:51:20,000

Anne: and then read off it. It gets so. overt that that star’s hard and tricky and awkward and messy and clunky, and you might not get it right. That level of vulnerability is going to go a lot further than demanding it. Would you say in that situation, the partner that is apprehensive, it’s because not the I don’t think that’s a good way to do it. Nothing wrong but more of this scared. It could happen. everything will collapse and that you’re just gonna.

00: 51:20,000 –> 00:51:21,000

Marie Vakakis: and it seems to work out.

00: 51:22,000 –> 00:52:02,000

Anne: potentially leave as opposed to the opposite, that I’m trying to do this to help us as opposed to. JANET Maybe or could it be. of different reasons that people would find that confronting. They might think why do now? What have I done? Am I going to get blamed?” Oh, but maybe they think, “I’ve compromised in all these things. What’s their problem?” I’m trying my butt off and it’s still not good enough. They might go into. shame, they might feel embarrassed or humiliated. They might be scared because they don’t know what the That might feel so unfair. being vulnerable that the thought of another person is. talking about the most.

00: 52:02,000 –> 00:52:08,000

Marie Vakakis: difficult things, we just don’t know that could be a lot happening and you’re allowed

00: 52:08,000 –> 00:54:42,000

Anne: You’re allowed to not set it as an ultimatum, but you can have a boundary of, I can’t be in a relationship where I’m spoken to this way, or these things happen. I would like to get some support. Otherwise, it might not work for me. Like you can have those boundaries and talk them through in your own life. therapy, but even just changing how you approach that conversation will go off further. So then a couple decided that they have had issues in the past, they would like to make their relationship work. So they’re coming to see you because they want to make things work and they do, they both actively do. Does a partner need to forgive that happened in the past. Sayonara. or something like can you move past it or do they have to actively forgive and what if one partner is feeling like they’re sort of being tricked into seeing you. so that they do figure it. If there have been transgressions in the past for a relationship to succeed, does one partner have to go through it? Let all the paths go. of that, like there’s that saying it’s like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die or holding hot coal to throw at your enemy. Have you heard those before? like that when we’re looking at affairs, we have a bit of a structured process. of a tone, a touch and a tune. So the person who participated in the infidelity has to a tone for that. Then we need to rebuild the attachment in that relationship and the trust. And then we start to a tune and tune. or to attach a tone to them. I might sometimes I jumble them up. that there is a process that helps rebuild that. But that doesn’t mean that all this forgotten. So if that partner had an affair and they came clean and we did all the work. And let’s say one of the places they went to in that affair was the Hilton Hotel. And then you’re traveling through Thailand and you go to book. hotel in Bangkok and you hook something and it’s next to the hilton. And that triggers the partner to have some of those feelings again and maybe feel a little bit insecure. That’s okay. It’s not expected that what we process that it’s all done now, it’s actually an honouring that that’s a trigger and a reminder of a past hurt and how do I support the person through that knowing I hurt them. And so there’s this adventure, there’s this adventure, there’s kind of support that’s required to be able to know that they have – you, there’s trust still.

00: 54:44,000 –> 00:54:45,000

Anne: Bob that create.

00: 54:46,000 –> 00:55:52,000

Anne: emotions. And that not mean that all that work has been thrown out the window, but how you respond to that can make or break her. So if you then say, well, we’ve spoken about this, fuck, I’ve really apologised. I don’t know what more you want from me. that’s going to be digging your grave. So they’re allowed to still have feelings. All feelings are fine. What happens during a session if one partner starts shutting down, and this is probably more pertinent from the marathon sessions, if one partner starts shutting down or stonewalling, basically they stop actively contributing. Yeah, then we do some grounding or self-regulation techniques. So we go through what some of them explained it, if that person has flooded, then we might actually do that. exercise together, a meditation, it might be that we pause the session and I get them to go for a 20-minute walk. So we might read it where the break is in that session, but we get to try and practice live. what they can do when they’re doing it.

00: 55:53,000 –> 00:55:56,000

Marie Vakakis: happens at home to bring in some of those resources.

00: 55:57,000 –> 00:56:01,000

Anne: grounding techniques like standing with your feet on the ground or feeling your

00: 56:01,000 –> 00:56:05,000

Marie Vakakis: to doing many body scans or deep guided relaxation.

00: 56:05,000 –> 00:56:08,000

Marie Vakakis: technique, a walk, sipping water.

00: 56:09,000 –> 00:57:02,000

Anne: different things that we can do to try and ground that person back and help them regulate. It could take 20 to 30 minutes. It could be shorter depending on how activated they get. We do some of the work to try and keep that person. supported because that’s an indication of what might happen at home. and where else will they live? because in individual therapy, they might not get poked in the same way to evoke that response. So that’s the beauty that I get to. is I see it live and we get to use this as a bit of a dress rehearsal of how can we try some things here, see how they land that you kind of then maybe do at home. So then we talk about couples therapy here in the context of saving a relationship or helping a relationship or growing within.

00: 57:02,000 –> 00:57:06,000

Anne: What about those times when…

00: 57:06,000 –> 00:57:27,000

Anne: And one partner might already be sort of halfway on the way out and they’re sort of trying to convince the other one that’s for the best. Or if you’re feeling that the relationship’s so broken that really they shouldn’t be together, is there a path out that you would be suggesting to people at that point?

00: 57:28,000 –> 00:57:34,000

Marie Vakakis: discernment counseling. So there’s… the type of counseling that is shorter in duration, it’s up to five sessions.

00: 57:35,000 –> 00:57:38,000

Marie Vakakis: and that helps the couple decide if they’re going to get married. together to then do.

00: 57:39,000 –> 00:59:12,000

Anne: therapy. So you could look up discernment counselling. I’m not going to say to someone, hey, separation needs to be rethought about it. But I might pose the question, how long can you keep going this way? they know how long it’s been happening or what, what is going on. juice they have left in the tank. So Marie has a tool where she uses in, I know she’s in a marathon therapy. I don’t know if you use it in your individual like weekly sessions with people where you kind of push them to the edge a bit. Can you explain a little bit about your blood pressure monitor? Yeah. couple to do is to talk about a recent fight, not like a 10 out of 10 fight, but something that may be a perpetual problem, something that… over and over again, and we do that with pulse oximeters. If it’s online we might use some sort of app or get them to buy the pulse oximeters. And that’s just to see what happens when does get into that high arousal when they start. flood, or if you’ve looked at some of Dan Siegel’s work, flip there a little bit. And we start to see the physiological response to that as well. So it’s to try and see, get an idea of how the couple fights. Ideally, we would record that as well. I get a chance to rewatch it and it’s also a really good way to see growth. Afterhood. So yeah, I don’t just sort of be like, I’m picturing like one of those. like the ding ding ding, go! You know, it’s not like that.

00: 59:12,000 –> 00:59:15,000

Marie Vakakis: But yeah, but it’s a chance to sort of say what.

00: 59:15,000 –> 00:59:22,000

Anne: happens and to have a bit of a baseline and understanding and that I’m not getting there to solve that particular file.

00: 59:22,000 –> 00:59:25,000

Marie Vakakis: help me assess how they’re.

00: 59:25,000 –> 00:59:27,000

Anne: how they do it.

00: 59:27,000 –> 00:59:32,000

Marie Vakakis: conflict or arguments. And so have you ever been shocked?

00: 59:32,000 –> 01:01:51,000

Anne: couple, like. Can people still sort of shock you or wear a mundane that we think. I’m very surprised, but often maybe it’s in. I’ve not got to underestimate people. I think some. I think maybe I underestimate how much can shift in a small time. I’m also really impressed by the creative ways that people. things. So I had someone recently were talking about what to do. flooded and you need a- out and their suggestion was to, they didn’t want to say time out and they didn’t want to use a physical object because like what if we’re on a walk? What if we’re at the park? So they decided I’m going to give you my watch and it’s a variation of that to keep their story private and it was fine. They’re like, well, I’m going to give you something valuable so that I need to walk off but – But I don’t need someone else’s name. He’s my phone, he’s my watch. back for that. So they’re like, you know, I’m not going to just give you the book off the bedside table or the candle sitting here. We care about that. just impressed me. or the safe word pineapple or- It does feel very unnatural. I can understand it for a lot of people that wouldn’t feel like it. Or if you watch Ted Lasser, Oklahoma, they just came up with the- I was like, they really caught me off guard. What’s a healthy relationship? [LAUGHTER] I think it’s one where you both can be individuals and connected.

01: 01:51,000 –> 01:01:53,000

Marie Vakakis: install where there’s trust.

01: 01:53,000 –> 01:02:05,000

Anne: commitment, safety, we know each other’s work. each other’s hopes, dreams, goals. We have ways of connecting. We have ways of responding to each other’s distress.

01: 02:06,000 –> 01:02:08,000

Marie Vakakis: we have separateness as well.

01: 02:09,000 –> 01:02:39,000

Anne: and we have togetherness. And it’s… balance of those things. Being able to be a person on your own and carry on. collaborate with your partner. So then finally, I have seen you light up when you’ve talked. a great marathon. you’ve had over a weekend. So why do you love couples therapy, marathon sessions in particular, why do you love it so much? I love the change that can happen. I’ve had someone say I’ve fallen…

01: 02:39,000 –> 01:02:42,000

Marie Vakakis: my husband away for again. Like that.

01: 02:42,000 –> 01:05:20,000

Anne: It makes me warm and gooey inside. Even this week, I had a couple where one person mentioned something. It was a conversation that they really, really struggled with and they’ve had so many fights about it. They had the conversation again. The other person responded, “Well, they felt it uncomfortable but they got through it.” and both cried and then they were telling me about this and I was… My eyes were watery just thinking I could say the vulnerability, I could say the connection, I could say the relief and how proud they were to do it. so it brought them. And so seeing those changes is so amazing. And it’s the same when I run parenting workshops. It was the end of a Tuning Into Teens program and it was a fairly quiet group, a small group, but they participated but they were quiet. And one of them at the end, she’s like, “Oh, my kid said, I don’t know where you’ve been going but you seem a lot less angry.” And I was reflecting on that because that was so beautiful and I have a book where I sometimes Amine. It’s not a thunderbolt. some way to that, like it’s awesome. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for 500 questions. Hopefully that’s covered what most people are asking for. And I realise that people might have come to the end thinking that they would then get a more futuristic but I made sure not to ask those questions. because you’re a professional. Oh, come on, throw a couple in there, give them something Maybe just one juicy question. Now you’ve put me on the spot. [inaudible] Well, while you think of that, I can share one. things that people fight about? Yes, I think this is what we want to know. Like, that’s the weird stuff, come on. Like, wow. I’ve got one. How you put the toilet roll on a toilet.

01: 05:21,000 –> 01:05:22,000

Marie Vakakis: Hold on.

01: 05:23,000 –> 01:06:25,000

Anne: Is it paper up, paper down? That’s actually, I know the answer to that, because it’s a patent, there’s an actual patent that’s about, it’s paper over. I agree. That is how the US painting was made. It’s paper over, right? But some people like the mullet and that caused conflict. one where I would weigh in and say, I’m sorry, but it’s this way. And I’m not speaking from personal experience because my partner, I agree that it’s that way, but there are some people where that would drive them. the wall, they go into the bathroom, and they can- in the toilet all over and then the partner goes and flips a bag and it’s just. All right, let’s leave it there. Thank you very much. No worries, thank you. And we’ll put a link to some of the blog posts and some of the resources that come out with this episode. So you can have a bit of a look through and see if. anything else that you want to grab from that. a question that you want answered. >> Get in touch and we’ll try and answer it on the podcast.

01: 06:25,000 –> 01:06:32,000

Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening. To keep the conversation going, have a great day.