[00:00:00] Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome to Inside Social Work. Join me as we go behind the scenes of different areas of social work, share candid conversations, practical insight, and some thought provoking ideas. Together we’ll explore the vulnerable moments, share our struggles and triumphs, and reflect on the day-to-day experiences that shape us as social workers.

 

[00:00:23] Marie Vakakis: This podcast is here to inspire practitioners. Bridge the gap between research and practice, and hopefully spark some meaningful discussions about lifelong learning growth and what it can truly mean to work with people during some of life’s biggest and most pivotal moments. I’m your host, Marie Vakakis, and thanks for tuning in.

 

[00:00:40] Marie Vakakis: Today’s episode was originally recorded for my other podcast, this complex life. Where I was talking with Tham about searching for a Bipoc therapist, and the conversation was really, really great and we started talking a little bit about intersectionality and different perspectives of different people in communities, and I [00:01:00] thought this might be a really good episode to pop.

 

[00:01:02] Marie Vakakis: Into the inside social work playlist as well. So here is my interview with Tham. I’m hoping it’s the first one of many that we do together. Tham and I both work educating other social workers. So we have some classes that we teach and it was really hard to contain our enthusiasm for this subject. So hopefully we made it.

 

[00:01:23] Marie Vakakis: Makes sense for the this complex life audience, but I think this one will be a really good one for you folk as well. And if you’ve got some questions, if you have any feedback, reach out to me on LinkedIn or Instagram, ’cause I’d love to hear what you want more of. This is a passion project. The Inside Social podcast.

 

[00:01:41] Marie Vakakis: It is back after a couple of years break, so. It started off with me working in universities and interviewing different placement providers and different social workers, and I absolutely love having these conversations, and I really like this conversation about intersectionality and working with people of [00:02:00] color.

 

[00:02:00] Marie Vakakis: And I think we’re gonna have some more conversations about this in upcoming podcast episodes. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Tham. Tham, welcome to the podcast, Tham. 

 

[00:02:11] Tham Fuyana: Thank you. Thank you. 

 

[00:02:12] Marie Vakakis: So, Tham, you are, uh, well now an educator. So you’re educating other therapists and future social workers and you work in a tertiary mental health service and alongside me at the therapy hub.

 

[00:02:24] Marie Vakakis: Yes. Could you tell me a little bit about, I mean, we, we’ve nutted out different topics that we could talk about today, and we decided to have a chat about finding a Bipoc therapist. Can you tell me a little bit about. What that means for people who have no idea, those who are Googling it or know what it means.

 

[00:02:42] Marie Vakakis: Everyone else might be really confused. 

 

[00:02:45] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely, and I think for me it’s about finding someone who you think can relate to your unique lived experiences where you are identifying your intersectionalities and how you experience the wealth from [00:03:00] self and trying to make sense of those experiences and looking for a therapist who think can walk in those shoes or can have a related experience from that intersectionality of yours.

 

[00:03:13] Marie Vakakis: So there’s a few things there. One is maybe being a part of certain community or communities yourself. Yeah. And then one might be working with particular groups. The term that I have for Bipoc is, so someone says, I’m a, you know, I, I work with bipoc folk. It might be that they don’t have a lived experience, but I’ve got the definition here is black, indigenous, and people of color.

 

[00:03:37] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So if someone is looking for a Bipoc therapist. They’re looking for someone who is either black, indigenous, or person of color. 

 

[00:03:47] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. 

 

[00:03:47] Marie Vakakis: And I’ve had this conversation with a few other therapists around, we don’t always necessarily know how to translate our own lived experience into the workers into therapy.

 

[00:03:58] Marie Vakakis: So is there a [00:04:00] difference between. Being a part of that community yourself and actually having done some additional work to understand, like you said, intersectionality, barriers to accessing healthcare, putting kind of words to some of that experience. 

 

[00:04:15] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely, and I think part of being part of the community for myself being a black male is the insights and the uniqueness that I feel like I can share with my.

 

[00:04:25] Tham Fuyana: Clients or I can bring some understanding to, to clients in, in sessions about the uniqueness of experiences of what it is to be a black person, a migrant, living in a country where you are a minority or you are. Adhere to different standards and ways of living in terms of that sort of Western way of living and how you navigating the systems that are often you have to navigate.

 

[00:04:52] Tham Fuyana: So sort of breaking it down to much more like migration, for example. I’ve lived as a refugee in the past in the uk, and [00:05:00] having to navigate the immigration system and the challenges that comes with that. Some of the emotional stress that causes in relationships for people is the uniqueness that I think I’m able to bring in the space for people who are from the same community as me.

 

[00:05:17] Tham Fuyana: Here, 

 

[00:05:19] Marie Vakakis: there’s so much in that I’m not even sure where to go. My brain gets so excited with questions. One of the thoughts that came to mind as you were saying that is, and it wasn’t directly related, but it’s this idea of different minority groups having to educate other people on their experience, whether that’d be someone living with a disability, maybe based on gender or sexuality or race and religion.

 

[00:05:43] Marie Vakakis: Do you think some of that is easier if you’re finding a therapist that. You don’t have to kind of overt that. You don’t have to wait for them to mention it or you have to educate them. They might just know and you can have that conversation in an easier way. 

 

[00:05:58] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. It’s interesting, [00:06:00] so I’ll share some of my, sort of my personal experiences there is this.

 

[00:06:05] Tham Fuyana: Sense that you see in Australia. I see a lot in Australia, but I also see a lot growing up in the uk it’s like when you see another black person in public, you sort of have to acknowledge each other, right? You sort of just nodded each other or just like a quick, hello. I don’t even know who their name is, but there’s this sense of like, we look at each other and we just acknowledge each other and that.

 

[00:06:23] Tham Fuyana: Is so common. And when I speak to other black people and go, oh, this is what I do, and they go, oh, I do the same thing too. And it’s almost like this shit experience that we laugh about, but we, we haven’t necessarily got like a attempt to it or why we do it. We sort of just happens. And I think those are some of the, sort of the unique experiences where you really can, in session, you can really use that powerfully to.

 

[00:06:52] Tham Fuyana: Delve deeper with people to understand what that connection means to them. Right. And another sort of experience that I [00:07:00] sort of think about is I’ve grown up having to tell my story. I’ve grown up in a minority I grew up in, um, I remember when we moved to the uk, I was, were the black, first black family in a sort of really white, British working class community.

 

[00:07:16] Tham Fuyana: And there was a lot of like people being curious about me, right? Everywhere I go, I have to go, hi, my name is Tom. I’m from Zimbabwe. This is what I do and why I come to England. So instance, there was this fascination of like, I’ve spent all of my time almost with this script that I have to carry with me and say to people because people are constantly curious and I think for me, the.

 

[00:07:38] Tham Fuyana: What I see a lot in therapy with people of my communities, they have navigated the world with the script of who they are and having to demonstrate why they’re here, where they come from, bottom here, and so on and so forth. And I think in that there is a unique experience of going, why do we have to tell our story every time, you know?

 

[00:07:59] Tham Fuyana: And [00:08:00] what does that mean for us? That we having into constant, people are so interested by us and how we navigating a place where. We never had to tell our story when in our home countries of origin, but now we’re constantly having to tell people our story, you know, and how do we experience that? We experience that as a form of like curiosity in other people, or do we experience as a form of racism.

 

[00:08:22] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I think that’s a really good example, and. I’ve got a group, I’ve been doing some teaching as well, and we, we’ve doing a topic at the moment about intersectionality and we’ve got quite a few students who were talking about this idea of in their home country there were different either tribes or community groups or different religions and there was very distinct groups.

 

[00:08:45] Marie Vakakis: And then they come here and they all unite on the. Section of race. Mm-hmm. So they’re all women of color. Mm-hmm. And when they’re here, they’re like, we feel more connected to each other here. Mm-hmm. And all of them were from different religions. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] All of them had different languages. And yet that idea of intersectionality and race, it changes depending on the context as well.

 

[00:09:10] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. That’s a really good point because. I experienced something I experienced same as well, and I think it’s, the way we talk about intersectionality in western countries is different to how women talk about it in countries of origin in Africa, for example. Right. I think a lot of our understanding of race and racism and ethnicity overall has been influenced by the sort of the American Black perspective movement, you know?

 

[00:09:41] Tham Fuyana: From the sixties, the seventies, about a collective group of people who are bounded by similar experiences and similar race. You know? And it doesn’t matter whether you, you can be from Jamaica or from Ghana or from United States, if you share this identity of black ethnicity, you [00:10:00] are almost become a collective, and I think a lot of.

 

[00:10:04] Tham Fuyana: The, A lot of influences from the American, sort of like black movements, civil rights movements, really brought that together and tied the knot, and I think that’s influenced a lot of our thinking. When you think about ethnicity in the Western culture where if you go to Africa. People might lean more into your, even your, your second name.

 

[00:10:25] Tham Fuyana: Right. You know, your, your second name will say a lot about where you belong in the society and your language, your spoken language, your tribe, and so on and so forth. That holds much more weight, I think, in frame, in countries of origin. 

 

[00:10:40] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. I think that’s, it’s so complex and we couldn’t choose in a country like Australia that’s so multicultural.

 

[00:10:46] Marie Vakakis: We can choose to be curious and unpack some of those more, and we can also. I guess choose not to, and I think some people choose not to, to recognise that rich experience of different people. And I [00:11:00] love, like the students, um, I hope they listen to this, that they’ve been so, I’ve been so amazed by how, and this, these are future social workers, which is fantastic to see how they’ve handled such.

 

[00:11:12] Marie Vakakis: Delicate conversations, such big conversations around everything from race, sexuality, religion, ethnicity, migration, experience, grasp of the English language literacy with such maturity and such kindness and compassion. And I think that’s really great because we don’t have, and a social work very similar to psychology and nursing and teaching the unpaid student placements really mean a lot of people.

 

[00:11:41] Marie Vakakis: Can’t access that course. Yeah. And so we do have a misrepresentation, maybe not misrepresentation, but we don’t have enough diversity in some of those fields. Mm. Especially if they’re new migrants. You know, maybe even grasping English as a language to study. And so I think some of our frameworks, [00:12:00] some of our philosophies, what gets published, who gets into the workforce is a bit skewed to a particular privilege.

 

[00:12:06] Marie Vakakis: And I don’t know where I was going with that, but I think it. That’s probably why we wanted to have this conversation is how do people find therapists who are qualified and also have done the work in understanding that experience as well? Mm-hmm. So after that big ramble that made no sense. What are some of the unique challenges you see bipoc clients face when accessing mental health services?

 

[00:12:31] Tham Fuyana: I think that was a great summary by when, and you just reminded me of something that I wanna come back to before I answer your question. It’s like, I think the way our society shapes the way I. In terms of social work, I think social work is a political profession. It’s a profession that reflects society and we mirror what society tells us or says to us, and then we try and find some understanding in that and look at [00:13:00] issues of power discrimination and rebalance society.

 

[00:13:03] Tham Fuyana: To become much more fairer. Right. And I think in that sense, what that means is that if our society and our politics do not communicate around integration, ethnic integration, supporting people to live together or talking in this. In depth way about race and people’s experiences. It becomes very difficult as recruiters in social work to hold that lens about what is the population and what’s going on.

 

[00:13:32] Tham Fuyana: It’s almost like this systemic approach, right, of feedback loops. If we are. Brave as a society to have these conversations around people’s experiences based on their ethnicity or any other intersectionalities. I think we’ve become much more skilled in knowing how to engage with the populations that are.

 

[00:13:53] Tham Fuyana: Often feel marginalised by organisations or often feel like they’re only seen through one [00:14:00] lens, but there’s also other parts of their identity that’s not being equally seen as well as it could be. That sort of leads on to the question you asked. I think I. It’s fundamentally like I was born in Zimbabwe, Missoula.

 

[00:14:15] Tham Fuyana: Right? That’s the, which is originally a tribe from South Africa. We have a term called Ubuntu. Right? Ubuntu is the idea of like, I am what I am because of who you are. Like it’s a shared collective sense of togetherness, right? And understanding that. I am part of this wider community that I belong to, and I think ultimately what that gives me is a fundamental of people want to be seen or what we want to be heard and.

 

[00:14:46] Tham Fuyana: When I think about the work that I do is how to wow, hold a space for someone to be seen through their own lens. How do they want to be seen? So how am I curious enough about their ethnicity and how they experience the world through that? [00:15:00] Whether it’s through things like interest, like music or, or sports or whatever they’re into to how they deal with statutory services like.

 

[00:15:08] Tham Fuyana: Police and, and mental health services and, and so on and so forth. And taking from a lens that’s from the individual and looking outwards into the community rather than sort of taking a lens that looks at the organisation and looking at the individual, right? How do we center people’s experiences? So that’s the lens that I try to take and that I find that that allows me as a therapist to see a holistic.

 

[00:15:32] Tham Fuyana: Person, a person as a whole, and spend a lot of time investing on who they are in our early parts of the session before we even talk about what the presenting issues are. 

 

[00:15:43] Marie Vakakis: So, I mean, if that’s part of the work you do, what are some of the challenges you see people face? Like I, I mean, some that come to mind already for me is a lot of our assessment tools and, and being mental health, social worker, social workers.

 

[00:15:57] Marie Vakakis: We don’t really, the diagnostic [00:16:00] approach is not really what we. We like to do, but a lot of those assessments are based on, I mean, there’s a lot of, they’re usually done at like universities with white students. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of them don’t have maybe as much applicability across culture. Mm-hmm. They might assume a certain language base and ability to express languages a certain way.

 

[00:16:20] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. Even something as simple as the das, which is one of those things that GP usually does, which looks at depression, anxiety, and stress. It might says an unusually sad or irritable mood. And you might be like. But those words don’t mean the same to me. So, you know, there’s the, the way we understand the presentations, but then you mentioned around interactions with medical professionals and statutory services, and that’s another area that I think for some people.

 

[00:16:48] Marie Vakakis: The services don’t have a kind of anatomical representation of things, of people that look like them. You know, a lot of, I think as a female, there’s a lot of literature out there around even the female [00:17:00] anatomy not being mapped out until a couple of decades ago, and I. Painkillers weren’t used, were tested on men first.

 

[00:17:07] Marie Vakakis: So people of color have additional things where they might have been used as trial subjects, as test subjects. There’s a deeper distrust of the system. Absolutely. And so how do we kind of overt some of that stuff and recognise the difficulty that some people face in actually even reaching out for support, whether that’s through a distrust of the system or.

 

[00:17:30] Marie Vakakis: Stigma, shame, misunderstanding, fear, like what are some of the areas that you, or the conversations you kind of see people having? 

 

[00:17:40] Tham Fuyana: Yeah, that’s a really good point and really good question because what you said is what? I see all of that in my engagement with people of color specifically. Right, and the mistrust of police, the mistrust of services, even the mistrust of therapy.

 

[00:17:57] Tham Fuyana: Even coming to therapy as a person of [00:18:00] color is so much harder. Right. Is so much more difficult. Then I think for me, what I try and this in out is where is the origin of that story coming from? Because often or not, it’s not the mental health that’s the beginning of that difficulty with services. Where does it start from?

 

[00:18:19] Tham Fuyana: Where did that mistrust begin from? And you’ll find, you know, like for me, I can map everything back to, especially my time in, in the UK to the immigration system. And the idea that you constantly having to prove yourself that you are worthy to be here and belong in the society, then having to have interviews with the immigration system and they’re doing their job.

 

[00:18:49] Tham Fuyana: You know, they’re, but that experience, you can’t take away from someone of constant reminder that you don’t belong here. And this can be taken away from you at any point in time, especially if you [00:19:00] also come from a country where. You’ve escaped persecution yourself. So the fear and what that creates, and what I see a lot of people say is that creates a level of like conditioning to accept this is the society that I belong in and I’ll never be good enough.

 

[00:19:17] Tham Fuyana: Right. I’ll always have to constantly prove myself that I’m worthy to belong in this society. It’s interesting because I remember growing up as a kid, my parents would be like, you have to work twice as hard to be on the same level as your peers who are white, basically. Right. And I felt that pressure in me and it was so interesting because I’ll feel it from home as a sense of like motivating me to, to achieve greater things in education or whatever.

 

[00:19:44] Tham Fuyana: Then I go in my community and I feel it because. I’ve been stopped and searched by the police seven times in my lifetime growing up. Right. And none of my friends who were white have been stopped and searched. So it’s almost like what the message is, us getting a home, we’re almost being validated by [00:20:00] the lived experiences.

 

[00:20:01] Tham Fuyana: So you almost become conditioned of sense of like, I constantly have to live, like I have to prove myself. What happens in therapy with that sense is I see a lot of. Black males mainly, and I speak from firsthand experience here of you almost put on this shield and this armor on you, right? This armor of you either have to defend yourself or you have to fight for your existence.

 

[00:20:25] Tham Fuyana: And I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of music that was very much validating that experience, especially coming out of the Caribbean with Bob Marley and also the civil right movements of Malcolm X and Martin King Mark. All the prominent Black Panther literature that I was reading was validating my experience.

 

[00:20:46] Tham Fuyana: I don’t exist in this society. I have to fight for my existence in this society. But also at the same time being fearful that if I fight too much, I might get arrested and put in prison and deported back to my country. So it’s like, okay, a paradoxical world [00:21:00] that you live in, right? You are trying to escape persecution from your home country, but you don’t feel fitting in this society.

 

[00:21:06] Tham Fuyana: So you put on this armor, and I think sometimes what happens in therapy is. We listen to the dangers that Arman might bring in terms of being able to relate to other people, right? And that’s where conflict in relationships and relationship dynamics become very, very difficult is when someone has to constantly have the armor on and they’re worried about taking it off because what that means for them.

 

[00:21:30] Marie Vakakis: There’s so much in that, and as you were saying that, I was thinking about, you know, there’s the experience of racial profiling. There’s the experience of the threat of migration being deported, and then as soon as you mentioned the arm I was, I was thinking about, you know, that. Vulnerability and how hard it is to be tender and to to be caring and nourish, nurturing and loving and intimate with someone.

 

[00:21:55] Marie Vakakis: If there’s a feeling of hyper vigilance that goes about your day, [00:22:00] and that’s really hard. And I think of some of the, you know, like I think of. Maybe if you and I were in a room together and we were both having experiences of depression and it presented as irritability, people’s responses to us would be very different.

 

[00:22:17] Marie Vakakis: Absolutely. They might think maybe I’m a little crazy, or, you know, if I’m crying, they might comfort me and they might be scared of you. 

 

[00:22:26] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. 

 

[00:22:27] Marie Vakakis: And that’s, you know, sometimes we have to overt that that does mean that there’s. Less spaces where some people can really let their guard down. Mm-hmm. Or share their story without fear of being seen as aggressive or angry or an incompetent parent, or have their children taken away or receive all sorts of hateful comments and threats and.

 

[00:22:53] Marie Vakakis: I don’t know what the answer is, but I guess maybe this is one of many conversations we’ll have and, and we’ve got some other team members who’ll be having [00:23:00] conversations with us around this same topic. 

 

[00:23:02] Tham Fuyana: Mm. 

 

[00:23:03] Marie Vakakis: But it’s, it’s really tricky. 

 

[00:23:05] Tham Fuyana: It’s such a tricky space, right? Because especially in mental health, I’m always curious, I don’t know about the statistics much in Australia, how much we measure.

 

[00:23:14] Tham Fuyana: People’s experiences of services based on ethnicity. But earlier in the UK a lot of UK sort of sensors and population understanding is based on ethnicity and there is overwhelming of black males who are sectioned in mental health hospitals. Right. Per population. The highest group is black males. Right?

 

[00:23:38] Tham Fuyana: Or another population. And we kind of see it. We see it here in the different context with First Nations people and incarceration. Right? And per capita and the life. So it’s happens here and I’ll be curious to see how do we expand our lens to bring mean more ethnic understanding when it comes to intersecting [00:24:00] with.

 

[00:24:00] Tham Fuyana: Services, especially where there’s a great power imbalance, right? Where there is a huge power imbalance about who gets to make decisions over your life and how are they holding your, your identity when they’re making those decisions. You said something really powerful about our different experiences. If we were to express maybe, I don’t know, some frustrations about our experiences is fascinating because.

 

[00:24:27] Tham Fuyana: Often or not, you grow up as a black male, young black man, and there’s this stigma that you are always angry, right? You are always angry and constantly you feel that like people think you’re up to no good. You know? People are constantly, you go and stand somewhere. People are looking. You what? What’s going on?

 

[00:24:48] Tham Fuyana: You know? And the police will stop you. And there’s this sense like you have to be so polite, overtly polite, that you don’t wanna give anyone with [00:25:00] power, statutory power, the reason to arrest you. I remember that narrative growing up as a kid. My parents talking to me. If you get stopped by the police, just do, as I say, don’t challenge it, even if you feel like you want to challenge it, because what you see as being challenging, they could label that as aggressive behavior.

 

[00:25:20] Tham Fuyana: I. The power imbalance in that relationship is they can arrest you and detain you. Right? Hmm. So those are some of the skills and the ways that we navigated are navigate, and I think a lot of black male navigate, that’s the armor that I’m basically talking about. Right. I don’t deal with those emotions of like, I’m angry.

 

[00:25:40] Tham Fuyana: This is not okay. Because if I express that I’m being aggressive, so I have to hold onto that and where do I take that to? Because if I leave it in my body, it’s not good for my personal wellbeing and what I see a lot in therapies and it gets transferred into relationships at home, right? Mm-hmm. That frustration is [00:26:00] just comes out in a home where maybe people might feel more relaxed to express themself.

 

[00:26:07] Marie Vakakis: As you mentioned that, where, where does that go? I’m reminded by some of the, and I don’t know if there’s a lot of like. Official research into this, but this idea of microaggressions and, and micro racism, having an impact on somebody’s stress, hormones, which can lead to a lower life expectancy and higher rates of, you know, inflammatory conditions and the whole range of things.

 

[00:26:29] Marie Vakakis: So that stress, that hyper vigilance and, and when we say hypervigilance, it’s that idea of, well, let’s say your house got broken into, and then every time you start to hear it. A crackling noise, your body might be kind of on alert. Yeah. Some people have that hypervigilance everywhere they walk through.

 

[00:26:48] Marie Vakakis: Yes, yes. And so they’re, they’re looking out for. For danger, for a threat, for their safety being compromised, and that has an impact in so many ways. [00:27:00] Absolutely. 

 

[00:27:01] Tham Fuyana: Can I just touch on something really important that you’re saying, because I think that stressor as well. Because you haven’t got anywhere to take it to.

 

[00:27:10] Tham Fuyana: You kind of sort of wear it. It’s like, it reminds me sort of, I don’t know the exact quote I read, but the, this concept reminds me of that the body keeps the score and uh, that book so powerful. And I think what happens, especially as a person of color is. You get beaten so much by the system and you get to accept this is how things are, if that makes sense.

 

[00:27:32] Tham Fuyana: Right. So to a certain extent it’s like you feeling this stress, but you almost become conditioned to this is just, I have to feel this way. I. Right. And then when things like, it’s always fascinating because sometimes I meet people of color or families of color in therapy and they will be like, have this sense of like, oh, that’s just nothing.

 

[00:27:52] Tham Fuyana: Like now I’m like, what you’re going through is a very, very difficult, but it’s almost like that sense of like, no, this is just nothing. We, we just used to [00:28:00] this. We used to live with injustice we used to live with. You know, even though we don’t like it, we’ve become conditioned and accept it. It’s almost like we’ve learned how to just accept this is how we are going to be and how life has to be for us to exist in this society.

 

[00:28:15] Tham Fuyana: And I think sometimes it can be so hard to penetrate that in in therapy, because effectively that’s huge. Asking them to take off their armor, right? And what’s underneath there is a level of vulnerability, you know? And. If I become vulnerable, I have to hold everything together. If I become vulnerable, no one’s gonna feel sorry for me in society, you know, the society has made me this way, so I have made my lane.

 

[00:28:41] Tham Fuyana: I’ve, you know, and this is why I think these are some of the reasons why often people of color, it takes longer for them to trust services, or it takes longer for them to come forward and seek therapy. 

 

[00:28:53] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I think you’re right. And we try really hard here at the therapy hub we have probably half our team [00:29:00] would be people of color.

 

[00:29:01] Marie Vakakis: And so that’s quite rare I think to have a service like that. So I guess maybe the first thing is you don’t just work with people of color. No. You see, you work with, you know, you work with everyone. It’s not like you just work with, you know, young black men, for example. That’s right. So what advice would you give?

 

[00:29:20] Marie Vakakis: So you know, if anyone’s listening and you like Tham’s vibe, yeah, come and see him. He’s great. But if someone is specifically looking for a therapist with some of the intersectionality that they relate to, what advice could you give those folk who. You know, might be looking for a Bipoc therapist or they’re trying to consider therapy, but they’re not sure, maybe there’s a bit of mistrust.

 

[00:29:42] Marie Vakakis: What, what can they look for and how can they start to navigate that system? 

 

[00:29:47] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. I’ll say firstly, the fact that you’re thinking about therapy is a good thing is you listening to your body and saying, I want to process through what’s going on for me, and I think therapy is the best [00:30:00] place for me to do so.

 

[00:30:00] Tham Fuyana: So well done for being in that. Place because it takes a long time to get in that place as a person of color, given everything we just discussed. Secondly, I’ll say. If your ethnicity and the experiences based on ethnicity is important, you wanna feel like you’re gonna, you’re going to find someone who’s much more relatable to you, absolutely reach out to that person.

 

[00:30:25] Tham Fuyana: But I’m also at the same time, because what we just identified here as well, is that how we think about. Intersectionality in the Western sphere is different to how people in the countries of origin and people think about it as well. So what you’re gonna find is some clients will hold those two different perspective of intersectionality.

 

[00:30:45] Tham Fuyana: So they might go, I’m happy to work with a person of color, but culturally can be a male. ’cause in my culture, I can only speak to females about female business type of thing. Do you see what I mean? So I think listen to those both [00:31:00] voices and reach out. To where you think you’re gonna be most heard and start off from there.

 

[00:31:05] Tham Fuyana: And I think what that does is it helps people go through the door of what therapy is, and it also opens up opportunities to see that there’s some amazing people of all different colors, races, genders, ethnicity. In this space of therapy that you might not necessarily find that you fit better with someone of different ethnicity to you.

 

[00:31:27] Tham Fuyana: But now that you know how the idea of therapy is, it gives you that confidence to go, let me try someone different later on in the future. Right? You can expand your horizon. So I think use it. It’s definitely a good opportunity as a gateway to just. Try therapy out because I think therapy is powerful. I love therapy.

 

[00:31:48] Tham Fuyana: I’m a therapist, I’ll say that, but I think it’s such a, it’s a powerful tool that I think sometimes getting through the door is just as hard, you know? And if we can make it easy [00:32:00] through how we are as a therapy hub, where we have people all different ethnicities. We are basically talking, looking out at the community, and we work in Foot Square, which is one of the most multicultural communities in, in Melbourne.

 

[00:32:14] Tham Fuyana: This is us as a, as a service looking out to the community to saying. We are here, we are representing the community. Representation is so important for me growing up as a kid, I wanted to see people who look like me. You know, not only through in certain stereotypical settings, but I wanted to see someone who looks like me, who read the news.

 

[00:32:36] Tham Fuyana: I wanted to see someone who looks like me, who talks about finance and politics, a teacher, a lawyer. You know, those are representations I wanted to see in my community and I. We have the privilege to do that at the therapy hub, and we are doing that and that just encourage people of color, anyone who who wants to attend therapy and the ethnicity is important to them, [00:33:00] reach out.

 

[00:33:01] Tham Fuyana: You’re gonna find there’s amazing people beyond ethnicity that will also be willing and skilled to help you. 

 

[00:33:07] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. I love what you said. You said something around finding, I think it was the right fit for you. And I would encourage folk to, I mean, they can reach out. There’s nothing wrong with a contacting an intake person or admin, whether it’s us or somewhere else.

 

[00:33:22] Marie Vakakis: And asking, you know, some basic questions of, these are some of the things I’m concerned about. Does your, do you have a member of your team that is comfortable or confident in that space? They don’t have to be an expert, but actually saying, these are my concerns. Is that person comfortable to work with that you can interview them a little bit as well.

 

[00:33:44] Marie Vakakis: And sometimes it’s also like dating. You’ve just gotta find the right fit. 

 

[00:33:49] Tham Fuyana: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely not 

 

[00:33:50] Marie Vakakis: the right date. 

 

[00:33:52] Tham Fuyana: Absolutely. 

 

[00:33:53] Marie Vakakis: Thank you so much for your time today, Tham. It has been a really interesting conversation and I think it won’t be the last one we have on [00:34:00] this topic. 

 

[00:34:01] Tham Fuyana: Very much so. Thank you so much, Marie.

 

[00:34:02] Tham Fuyana: We enjoyed, really enjoyed myself.