[00:00:00] Ashton Hayes: Hello and welcome back to our collaboration series with the Inside Social Work Podcast and the becoming an A-M-H-S-W podcast with me, Ashton Hayes, and me Marie Vakakis. So in this episode, we are gonna have a talk about self-doubt, which I think is something that a lot of social workers experience and it can happen at.

[00:00:28] Ashton Hayes: Anytime in your career. It doesn’t actually have to be something that happens at the start of your career when you are still not sure. I think all of us have experienced self-doubt at some time. Marie, has there been a time when feeling doubtful about yourself has meant you may not have said yes to an opportunity or that you almost said no?

[00:00:48] Ashton Hayes: I think it 

[00:00:48] Marie Vakakis: starts before that where the self-doubt, and I see this being a little gendered, not always. There is a lot of discourse around what [00:01:00] women see in a job ad and how many of those criteria they feel they meet before they even consider applying. Mm-hmm. So I think there would be a component of that that stopped me even putting my hat in the ring.

[00:01:14] Marie Vakakis: Right. And. Giving some opportunities ago. So I wasn’t even offered it to, to not take it. So I think that would definitely be one. I think, and this is something I still struggle with, I do have a, a narrative of not being a good enough writer. 

[00:01:32] Ashton Hayes: Okay. 

[00:01:33] Marie Vakakis: Some people say that with maths, you know how some people are like, oh, I’m no good with money, I just don’t make money.

[00:01:37] Marie Vakakis: Doesn’t make sense to me. We’ll talk about that in our money series. But that has stopped me applying for things like PhDs, right? And I think that that’s something I would like to do, but I’ve never felt like a smart enough person to, to do that. Okay? And so constantly. Trying to challenge that. It’s a learnable skill.

[00:01:57] Marie Vakakis: It’s something I can refine. Even, you [00:02:00] know, a beautiful written blog post or a book has had multiple versions and editing. I just can’t shake that. I’m not smart enough. I can’t write. So I think that stopped me with some, some study. Okay. And it also frustrates me that so much of our study, especially my masters, uh, my family therapy masters, the assignments were written and yet.

[00:02:21] Marie Vakakis: All I do all day with people is talk and listen. Right? And so I found that a very interesting thing of I’m comfortable listening and talking and being in the space and reflecting back what that’s got to do with writing an essay baffles me. So I think it definitely has stopped me. Putting myself out there and for a long time, as silly as it sounds, but even my surname being clunky and Greek just felt awkward.

[00:02:48] Marie Vakakis: Right. That I was like, I don’t know any podcasters with awkward surnames. They all had very Anglo clean surnames. Sure. And so it wasn’t until I heard some other podcasters, even some who [00:03:00] English was a second language just put themselves out there. I was like, oh, this is possible. And no one cares as much as I do.

[00:03:07] Marie Vakakis: So I think it has stopped me putting myself in some spaces and there’s things that I keep working on in supervision and in therapy around that sort of exposure and not being too neutral all the time. I think social workers try really hard to be considered and measured and neutral and hold multiple positions into perspective and.

[00:03:31] Marie Vakakis: That can come across in, I guess, branding and putting yourself out there as vanilla and not having strong opinions. Mm. And so trying to get comfortable with pissing some people off or having an opinion that is different and that being okay, I think is the next step of my a growth 

[00:03:49] Ashton Hayes: edge. Interesting. I think the piece that you mentioned around writing versus being able to speak and listen when [00:04:00] you’re in session with people is something that actually comes up a lot in my work where social workers, and it certainly happened to me as well when doing the accreditation process well.

[00:04:14] Ashton Hayes: Get very stuck and I will say to them, but if you were in a room supporting your client and speaking to the interventions you were using and advocating pertaining to diagnoses and. Speaking in a multidisciplinary team space, you know what you’re talking about. Yes. And of course the answer is always yes.

[00:04:35] Ashton Hayes: But when it comes to actually writing it down, it can just be so intimidating, I think, for people. 

[00:04:42] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, it can, and I remembering that application. I found, I used the dictation function a lot, so I did almost my entire honors thesis or research pathway because it’s not, doesn’t really count as it anyway with the dictation function.

[00:04:57] Marie Vakakis: So I would press the dictation and [00:05:00] talk to the Word document, and I found that easier to then edit and do it that way than just writing slabs and slabs of stuff. So I would almost have to reverse that as questions. Yeah. And. Talk it out. 

[00:05:13] Ashton Hayes: And that’s exactly what I tell social workers to do. Look at this, great minds think alike.

[00:05:18] Ashton Hayes: Record yourself. Imagine that you are in a boardroom with another clinician. And record how you would respond. Because many times I’ve been inspired by social workers advocating and speaking in that space in a multidisciplinary team space who would probably. Balk at the idea of having to write it down or write a paper or present a thesis, so, so maybe it’s not 

[00:05:46] Marie Vakakis: such a uncommon fear then.

[00:05:49] Ashton Hayes: I don’t think it is. And I think you’re right that there is a gendered piece to some extent around the idea of needing to be [00:06:00] able to meet 99.999% of the criteria before even throwing your hat in the ring. 

[00:06:05] Marie Vakakis: So that’s a little bit of my story. How about for you? Has. Self-doubt almost stopped you from an opportunity or taking a chance?

[00:06:15] Ashton Hayes: Yeah. I think one of the times when I was a little bit concerned was about when I went from sort of a smaller leadership role to a bigger leadership role, and I was worried about the business. Planning money side of things because that was not really something that I could speak to specifically in that application.

[00:06:43] Ashton Hayes: And I remember in my interview I was dreading that question and when it came up I was pretty honest and transparent around it being an opportunity for growth for me and. I was successful in that role and I’m so [00:07:00] glad that I didn’t hold back because of that one piece, and I got a lot of support to be able to do it, and I was able to do it well, but that role was so pivotal for me in so many ways that missing out on that would’ve just been a really awful thing to happen.

[00:07:17] Marie Vakakis: What helped you push through that doubt? 

[00:07:20] Ashton Hayes: I think I decided to see it from the perspective of how I would coach and support people who were coming to me for supervision. And so rather than we talked in the last episode about the concept of goals, rather than see it as goals, I wanted to. Use the concept of milestone.

[00:07:41] Ashton Hayes: So that was a milestone achievement for me to be able to be transparent about, not a deficit, but an area for growth. And to put myself out there in a way that I would support and encourage supervisors to do it was still scary. 

[00:07:59] Marie Vakakis: So one of. [00:08:00] Commonly used techniques of how would you talk to somebody else?

[00:08:04] Marie Vakakis: So often when I’m working with empathy and that internal criticism mm-hmm. And trying to think about self-compassion. Mm-hmm. I get people to think about what they would say to a friend. Yeah. A young child. And our voice tends to be much more generous and kinder. Yeah. Than our internal dialogue. It sounds like a technique like that really helped you of what you might say to someone else as an outsider.

[00:08:30] Marie Vakakis: To help build their confidence. Yeah, clip that on. Its onto yourself, I guess. 

[00:08:34] Ashton Hayes: And I think that sometimes our imposter is pretty loud and she speaks with a strong voice. And it’s not about saying to her the opposite. You know, if she’s saying you’re terrible. Don’t do that. People will see that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[00:08:54] Ashton Hayes: Instead of kind of squashing her down and saying, no, I’m amazing. I mean, you can do that if it works for [00:09:00] you. But rather saying, I accept that you have an opinion. I’m just going to actually go this way this time. Right. And so then we have that gentle acceptance. Which Yes, comes from acceptance and commitment therapy while still allowing space for growth, and I think that that’s really important.

[00:09:18] Ashton Hayes: But yeah, self-doubt hits me all the time. Self-doubt around posting reels. And I feel like engaging with people through reels is something that I really respond well to the people that I follow, the people I’m really interested in. And you were really supportive for me in that space and helping with being just open about your process and that really assisted me.

[00:09:43] Ashton Hayes: I still have a lot of self doubt in that area though. 

[00:09:46] Marie Vakakis: It’s funny you mention the reels and content. I heard a long time ago I was looking at the function of feelings. So when you are an ACT practitioner mm-hmm. ACT is I think, one of the most life changing modalities to [00:10:00] learn. Mm. Because you can’t do act, you have to embody it.

[00:10:04] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. A person that I follow a lot and signed up to their newsletter, Susan David, and she talks a lot about the function of emotions and so a while back I was thinking about working with particular clients and we were looking at this idea of envy. How sometimes envy can have us act in ways that are outside of the healthy adult self of who we’d wanna be.

[00:10:28] Marie Vakakis: And I think that is coming up more and more in my work and increasingly in our in. Communities where we’re trying to influence change in one area, but there’s this scarcity mindset or this fear of something being taken away or this envy that someone else got it easier than me. 

[00:10:43] Ashton Hayes: Right? 

[00:10:44] Marie Vakakis: And so I’ve been really curious about envy for a while.

[00:10:46] Marie Vakakis: And one of the pieces that I came across, I cannot remember where I heard it, was how do we look at that feeling? How do you recognise it? And then trying to flip that to if you are envious about someone else’s, maybe [00:11:00] success or their bravery. Maybe it’s telling you or it’s showing you what’s possible.

[00:11:07] Marie Vakakis: And so when I started to look at that for myself, I thought, there are all these particular people who are doing these amazing things and instead of being envious about their bravery or their capacity, starting to think, oh, they’re showing me what’s possible. And this is more possible on a smaller scale now because go back 15 years ago, you had to be very, very well known.

[00:11:29] Marie Vakakis: To have a spot in the media, you could only be on certain TV channels, radio, you know, print magazines, and now you can create content and you only need to look at people who may be one step ahead of you, not Hollywood movie stars. Hmm. And so this idea of looking at envy and then looking inwards into, am I prepared to do what it takes to get there, or what that person has sacrificed?

[00:11:56] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. Maybe not. Right? So I can take a step back. [00:12:00] Or is this showing me a path of what it could look like? And so that’s helped me push through some of those fears a little bit, is finding other people who are a few steps ahead and then adopting a, I guess, a mantra of progress over perfection. And so with my YouTube channel that’s been, it’s getting started.

[00:12:20] Marie Vakakis: Get consistent. Then improve and optimise. And so the first few, more than first few videos have just been, just get started, just wax something up, just practice. And my editing got faster, my speaking got better, my script writing improved, and now it’s not as hard. And so they’re kind of two ways that I’ve started to understand that a little bit more.

[00:12:44] Ashton Hayes: I think progress over perfection is something that. People need to write on a big sticky note and have it where they can see it, because perfectionism is so limiting. And progress is getting out there and doing it. 

[00:12:57] Marie Vakakis: One thing I learned about perfection, which I found [00:13:00] interesting is perfectionist quit therapy very prematurely because, and I’ll put myself in the cut, we want the results quickly.

[00:13:07] Marie Vakakis: It’s like, no, no, that’s not good enough. You should know this. You should know exactly what I’m thinking. Why haven’t she given me the exact perfect resource that’s gonna fix this thing that I’m coming to you for? Mm-hmm. In 49 minutes or less. So I’m sorry to previous therapist, but also if that’s you, take a breath and maybe s.

[00:13:23] Marie Vakakis: A bit of a mirror, look at what’s happening for you, that internal work and follow Suzanne David. Her book Emotional Agility is fantastic and her newsletter is really great. So a lot of wisdom in her work as well. Have you come across her work? 

[00:13:36] Ashton Hayes: I have. I really like her work. She does a great series of visuals, I think she did on Instagram, around emotions and the umbrella emotion and what sits underneath underneath it.

[00:13:47] Ashton Hayes: So yeah, definitely recommend her as well. 

[00:13:49] Marie Vakakis: Fantastic. Anything else for self-doubt? Do you still have it? Oh, of course I do. Does it go away? Maybe people are listening to us thinking we are so much further ahead, or [00:14:00] we’ve put ourselves out there and that we don’t have this anymore. And I know for me that’s definitely not true.

[00:14:06] Ashton Hayes: Oh, I definitely have self-doubt. What I try and I think it comes about through not wanting to let people down. And so what I try and do now is. Look at it through the lens of learning. So when I’m feeling self-doubt, I think, okay, what can I take away? What? What can I learn? Rather than seeing it as something that limits me and makes what I do smaller.

[00:14:32] Marie Vakakis: I love that. What I can learn, what’s an opportunity here. Yeah. Fantastic. I guess we’ll leave it there for this episode. 

[00:14:38] Ashton Hayes: Great.