00:00:04,000 –> 00:01:17,000

Michelle Janssen: There’s still this stigma that marriage therapy or counselling equals the marriage being dead or it being over, like it’s your last resort. that really worries me because I look at that and I think, gosh, there are so many couples out there who could be working on their communication and improving their connection. Because there’s this stigma they avoid it. On average couples wait seven years to access therapy. which is really, when you think about it, that’s such a long time to be in a state where you’re not feeling connected or not knowing how to resolve arguments. So I get it, I get the discomfort of it, I get the money that goes along with it, the time investment, all of these things you know, a consideration, but I think if we’re just staying with that stigma for a moment it’s just… Why should we put into this now? Let’s wait until it gets really bad. I just wish that, I guess, if we could reframe… couples counseling in this instance as it’s not about being broken, it’s about learning how to communicate.

00:01:23,000 –> 00:01:38,000

Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome to this complex life. Today we’re tackling a tricky topic, couples therapy, and there are so many myths and misconceptions about couples therapy and so I’ve brought in Michelle Janssen to unpack some of those with me. Welcome to the podcast.

00:01:38,000 –> 00:01:40,000

Michelle Janssen: Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:40,000 –> 00:02:00,000

Marie Vakakis: When you work with couples… or better. When you go to a dinner party and you introduce yourself and people say, “What are you doing?” You’re like, “I’m a couples therapist.” And you kind of get those awkward stares and people get a bit nervous and kind of wriggle in. Why do you think they do that? What are the biggest misconsumptions? and misassumptions around couples.

00:02:01,000 –> 00:02:57,000

Michelle Janssen: Yeah, I definitely do get that. I get people wanting to either tell me their stories. or for me to try and break confidentiality and tell them juicy stories, which of course I won’t. But yeah, I think there are a lot of misconceptions. The first one probably– There’s still this… that marriage therapy or equals the marriage being dead or being over like it’s your last resort. That really made me feel like I was in heaven. really worries me because I look at that and I think, gosh, there are so many couples out there who could be working on their communication, improving their connection and because there’s this stigma they have. it. Yeah, so I definitely think that that’s a… one. As well as just this idea like, “Oh, we don’t…” yet.

00:02:58,000 –> 00:03:11,000

Marie Vakakis: And I do ask and I probe but I’m wondering like what’s your take on that like what are they waiting for? What’s the, we don’t need that yet like it’s what do they then, what are they waiting for? What will be the next step?

00:03:12,000 –> 00:04:20,000

Michelle Janssen: I mean, it would be different for everyone, right? There’s always nuance to everything, but I would gather that it’s around. It’s not that bad yet. it means for some people they haven’t defined what that yet or when it would get to them. would mean. For some people I think it would be about maybe when it was really really bad and we weren’t talking to each other and we couldn’t way through, which I think the research backs up, like what is the stat, something like, on average couples wait seven years to… therapy, which is really, when you think about it, that’s such a long time to be in a state where you’re not feeling connected or not knowing how to resolve. arguments. And so I get it, I get the discomfort of it, I get the money that goes along with it, the time investment, all of these things, you know, But I think if we’re just staying with that stigma for a while, then we might be able to get to a point where we can really get to the point where we’re just staying with that stigma. It’s just why should we, you know, put in our effort? this now. You know let’s. it gets really bad. That’s the curse that’s the underneath premise of…

00:04:20,000 –> 00:05:28,000

Marie Vakakis: right? Like? Yeah. I had a really good and dental pain and something excruciatingly hurts and you book in that emergency dental appointment and you think “oh my goodness, I don’t know how I’m going to get through the night, take some painkillers and then maybe in the morning the pain goes away like oh let’s to go to the dentist. And then when does that flare up when you’re on holiday or when you’re in the middle of like a work conference or something. And what might have been a feeling that might have needed to happen might be a full kind of extraction or some bigger repair that is more pain, more money, more recovery time. And I really like that because I think sometimes while conflict is normal and healthy and we need it, and maybe that’s a whole lot, conversation. Those pain, those emotions, these signposts, they’re telling us something’s not okay. It doesn’t mean the real thing. She was doom and gloom. But there might be a skill that’s missing or a conversation that needs scaffolding to be had. Like they’re telling us, that’s telling.

00:05:29,000 –> 00:06:45,000

Michelle Janssen: pain is telling us something. Yeah, I think in in terms of conflict too, it’s the same principle of, you know, when you can do conflict well, you’re just weeding out what’s not working in the relationship. But I think so many people… get stuck on we should just know how to do this? We should just know how to fight or relate to each other or stay connected when we’ve got kids and work and, you know. “I should just know how to communicate or I should be better at this.” But I stop to think about it. where do we actually learn how to do relationships? Where do we learn how to… communicate really effectively. You know, we go to school, we go to university. We go to TAFE, we study, we train, we go to the gym, everything else we need to build up and learn and do. skills, you know, to grow. But for some reason in the realm of emotion, yeah, there’s this stigma that we must be broken or we must know how to do it. And I just wish that. I guess if we could reframe couples counseling. as it’s not about being broken.

00:06:45,000 –> 00:07:52,000

Marie Vakakis: It’s about learning how to communicate. Yeah. I love that. Like all these other areas of our lives, we, we learn and we progress and we get tutorage or support or training for, and I, I often, cause I hang out quite a lot on LinkedIn and I see how much effort some people put into skills that will make it perceived to be making them money. They’ll go to ten they’ll learn assertiveness, they’ll do training on challenging conversations or run a lot of meds. having conversations around that. and… still not a- do that but when it comes to then personally, how few people have the maybe awareness or understanding, maybe even a bit of the courage, because I think it can be quite scary when I wish it wasn’t. to do that for themselves, to think I want to communicate differently or I’m contributing to this or I could expand my skills or I could be a better listener. parent partner, you know, communicate in a number of ways.

00:07:52,000 –> 00:08:51,000

Michelle Janssen: intimate and in close relationships. Absolutely. Yeah. And once again, I get it, you know, Ren, if you get stuck on a particular thought, you know, you get hooked with a particular thought or. that if we do this then… whatever the catastrophe is. right? And you can get really stuck there. but I often find when couples come in. I try to put them at ease that you wouldn’t buy a car and… maintenance on it, right? You know, we need to be able to do maintenance on our relationship. So it’s we’re sitting there and blaming one another. We try to dispel that straight up. We’re not sitting there and I’m… and going quack to you and quack to you and you’re right. you’re wrong. It’s not about that. And I think that if more… people could know that. use it as skill building. I think we’d have a lot happier couples.

00:08:51,000 –> 00:09:16,000

Marie Vakakis: Ultimately, in a lot of cases, happier families as well. Yeah. That’s how I got into couples work was I worked mostly with adolescents and then families. And then working with the couple was the earliest sort of prevention I could do for then future children. And not all couples come to see me have children or are coming to do anything with parenting, but then it just it started a whole new, I guess, modality.

00:09:16,000 –> 00:09:55,000

Michelle Janssen: in career path and interest. But it speaks to that ripple effect doesn’t it? So whoever your immediate community is, whether it is kids, whether it’s extended family, work, other difficulties in your life. Being able to learn those communication skills is, I’ve just seen it. I just feel so genuinely passionate about it. positive ripple effects. Just the idea of… Learning how to listen. Understand each other. Because, you know, at… At our call we all want to be heard and understood, right? Sometimes we don’t know how to do that and it’s okay to admit that.

00:09:55,000 –> 00:11:06,000

Marie Vakakis: this huge and even for the individual like I talk a lot about the quality of our relationships impacting our mental health and I’ve come into couples work through a very traditional sort of treatment kind of pathway and it’s true that sometimes we can’t avoid things like trauma and negative life experiences or a stressful work environment or a natural disaster or something that happens. How we’re supported, how we feel heard, empathised with, validated, comforted, how we feel connected to a person. personal community, that is so healing. and can really improve. mental health. and then with good mental health we have good well-being, good… more vibrancy in our life, more thriving. than just surviving and so they’re so linked together that, you know, really I scribbled down that we’re not there yet or it’s not that bad yet because I really wish we could every single person could benefit from this realistically. Oh yeah. And I would.

00:11:06,000 –> 00:11:50,000

Michelle Janssen: of listeners, people listening right now, who are going, “Okay, well how could I talk to my partner about this?” And I think if you’re saying something like we’re not there yet, or it’s not that bad yet. Have a conversation with them, asking them to define or what would that… So we’ve been talking about that a bit so far, but. what would that look like? And then if that’s the case, is it possible that we could take a few steps back from that, you know, and maybe just having a look at. What is couples there? what kind of approaches are out there, what’s the purpose of it. I think that could be really a really beneficial conversation or starting point.

00:11:51,000 –> 00:12:41,000

Marie Vakakis: around agreeing to go together. Which interestingly, if that conversation is hard to have and doesn’t go well, that’s probably an indication that you could benefit from couples therapy. So if you’re sitting there struggling saying, “Oh, my partner won’t go. They won’t listen to me. We can’t have these conversations.” Things aren’t great. You’re just sweeping it under the rug. And that is probably a sign that they’re not, in Gottman terms, accepting influence. that and so if you’re hesitating to talk about that. there’s a bit of a kind of a little indication that you might want to and you’re not sure how to go about having that conversation which is maybe further evidence that you’re

00:12:42,000 –> 00:13:52,000

Michelle Janssen: the benefit from having some of those supported conversations in a therapy room? Absolutely, yeah. And I think that, like again, I’m thinking of, you know, friends and people you know, because I guess we get into our little bubbles sometimes. know, a very much cheerleaders for this. I know I am. But, So thinking about people who do have those hesitations and trying to get into tune with that. into my mind or around, we don’t have the time for that. How will we find the time and the emotional energy? I know sometimes people are worried about opening a can of worms and then let’s go to work, or let’s go to dinner and have to sort the kids out, or whatever they’re doing. So there’s the time aspect I think is important to address maybe as a barrier and a conversation. And then also, okay, how do we? if this you know couples therapist that we pick is quite out of great good or going to help us. There’s that because there’s so many people out there in options. It’s such a vulnerable thing to do. right person for you who will know how to support you, right?

00:13:52,000 –> 00:14:42,000

Marie Vakakis: And it can be a little bit like dating. If you go on a date and it’s not the right date, you’re not automatically thinking, well, hopefully there’s something wrong with me, or maybe even there’s something wrong with them. It’s, this wasn’t the right fit for me. And if we can get that more resilient, help seeking that, you know, it’s okay to, it might take an investment of time and finance, but I think you have to is really worth that. I mean I’ve had some couples, like you’re right, that come in sometimes seven years longer. I’ve had recently, you know, decades and some of these issues have been there for so long that after the end of which and say I feel like I’m falling in love with my partner all over again. It’s just like, wow, they could have had.

00:14:42,000 –> 00:15:41,000

Michelle Janssen: Yes, I’ve had similar experiences so many times. particularly around, I mean, you do a bit of a Google of the four horsemen, which is the idea of criticism and defensiveness and so on, how we communicate in relationships or what flooding is, when we’re dysregulated, like all these conflict tools and management skills for conflict. I’ve had so many people go, “Oh my goodness, if we just knew this at the start of our marriage, hear each other and I’ve had a lot of people go, this is so simple. So, absolutely. there’s absolutely that. It is worth the time. an investment. But yeah, like you say, like how do you pick that person? I think because, you know, to borrow against me. language, there is that art and science to it. So there’s somebody. particularly well-qualified. right with that meaning to feel.

00:15:42,000 –> 00:16:33,000

Marie Vakakis: connected to them. Absolutely. And… Horseman, as you’re talking about that, it made me think of some of the really foundational skills that we talk. couples there. Sometimes I even hate calling them skills, but I guess for lack of a better word right now that’s it. There are some things that I’ve noticed in couples that I’d be curious to hear your thoughts first. things that maybe small adjustments in how they interpret something. Relationship that it’s like a light bulb switches on and they’re like, oh my goodness I didn’t know that that’s what my partner meant by that or when this and this happened this was the response they were looking for. Do you have any common things that come up that– just give people this moment of, “whoa, this is what they’re doing!”

00:16:33,000 –> 00:19:20,000

Michelle Janssen: needed? So probably around assumptions we make about each other, that’s a big one. And what that would sound like is something like, well, when you do x, you think xyz or this means you think this. you don’t care or. Could we give that as a made up example so people know? So it would be something like people saying you don’t care about like you mustn’t love me or because if you’re not listening to me or you know I’ve told you this a hundred times you mustn’t care you know if you’re not doing the dishes at the end of the night it means that you don’t care or you just you’re not But I think partly it’s how we communicate what we’re feeling and needing, of course. So what you’re really… I’m feeling unhurt, I’m feeling uncared for, I’m feeling hurt. overwhelmed, pressured, but then how you’re communicating is getting in the way. But then some of the assumptions like when we go out and say something critically like that, is that then naturally a partner will respond with something like, “Of course I love you, how could you say that? Of course I care about you, I just forgot.” And then we get into that defensiveness. And then this tennis match back and forth. And again, I can still be guilty of it. I still have to catch myself. I always put a say that to couples, but yeah, I definitely think like how you say it and correcting some of those assumptions around… why someone’s doing something… why something’s happening can be. real relief and often that involves slowing way down. I’ve also had moments And I’ll say it, you know, just more of as a reflection on myself as a therapist where I’ve been demonstrating how to reflect. For example, like to demonstrate, you know, when we’re trying to listen and tune into the parts that have made sense to us, paraphrase what the other person is saying. like ever since I’ve been role modeling that I’ve noticed like, let’s say I’ve done it clumsily, like, you know, if someone’s still. bad when you don’t respond to a text message. Right. So it’s something like that. And then really clumsily I’ve gone back, oh, okay. So you’re feeling bad when you’re not getting a response. Like you’re feeling a bit ignored. And the people have cried just that this year really… of just one moment. being hurt. Like, “Oh, you”

00:19:21,000 –> 00:21:05,000

Marie Vakakis: what I was saying. And sometimes it’s honestly that simple. I have this, I talk about it in so many episodes and when I’m a guest on other people’s episodes around empathy. and validating and stop. And I think so. You know, if you’re complaining about a bad day at work and your partner’s like, well, if you quit, that’s fine. You can just quit. We’ve got savings. No problem. And the other person like, you’re just not listening to me. They am. I am listening to you. I’m saying you can quit your job. And they’re trying to come up with a solution. They’re saying, I see you’re in pain and I want to take it away. And that almost never works. What people are wanting is for someone to paraphrase and summarise what they’ve said. That sounds really hard or you’ve worked so hard on that project. No wonder you feel defeated. And maybe it is a little bit like your boss is being unreasonable, you know, taking their side instead of saying, well, you should have, you could have done it this thought of assertiveness training or I can proofread this for you. No solutions, stop trying to fix it. for solutions. person know you hear them and the only way to do that is to just let them out. They can know you. for you to share what you’ve understood and maybe either elaborate on it or be able to capture that with a few words that maybe they were finding hard themselves. It sounds really overwhelming or you’ve got a lot on your plate right now. It makes sense. You feel that way? Yeah, it’s huge, isn’t it? And it sounds really simple, but.

00:21:05,000 –> 00:21:55,000

Michelle Janssen: Sometimes it’s hard sometimes to do in practice, which is where again couples therapy can, can… you with just having those moments. wooden 就;希望能在 Blake has found a 700-year-old family with other recipients of IT Ronald and guide you through that. I think about people’s rebuff. Like if we’re dressing… hum, stigma and barriers. and ideas around it, right? So I think about when I’ve worked with couples and you know, one of them will say, yeah, but what’s the point of that? I mean, I’m a solutions person. I’m at work. day and I have to find something to eat. I have to find answers and I am answerable to people. deliver an outcome. What’s the point of all this validation stuff? Like it’s not going to do anything about it. Let’s talk about that. Yeah.

00:21:55,000 –> 00:23:37,000

Marie Vakakis: to another episode in the show notes, I interviewed John Flanagan about a similar thing. say those skills are great at work that is really if you’re building Ikea furniture, if you’re assembling. Kappa. if you’re working on construction, if you’re… Oh no, so there are things? required procedure higher. key you bring that into. They are not your colleague and it’s not a work project. Those skills will be life-saving in and career building in school. is you bring that into work, if you bring work into home in that way, and it’ll absolutely kill the relationship because what we want, the foundation piece of a relationship is connection and trust and of Sue Johnson’s work. of trust is do you see me? Are you there for me? Do you have my back? rely on you and that being seen is not the, we’ve got enough money for you to quit your job, it’s can you see my pain? Can you see that I’m struggling? Can you see the tender parts of me I’m trying to show? That’s that trust. That’s not done by That might come later, you might have a conversation and then after a little while it’s like, “Hey babe you really are straight.” And it’s an option if you need it and we don’t have to talk about it now, but we can figure out a way to make it work if you did want to leave. Yeah, it’s not just sex.

00:23:38,000 –> 00:24:45,000

Michelle Janssen: throw out problem solving. because then nothing would get done. But I think that’s the way it works. just really having a shift to… understanding first because when you think about moments in your life, where you’ve felt really connected. or… yeah they got me! when you sighed that breath of relief. In whatever style, they’re struggling. it is. I bet you it will be a moment where somebody really just said, “Gosh, that’s hard.” or “I’m so sorry,” or something really just being with you. And I think that’s the stuff of love. It’s what makes us feel. energise vital, you know, being able to connect with people. day to day basis. often as we can to know that you matter and that you’re important because I know so many people struggle with how busy life is, how sometimes days can feel. knee and I think when you can tune into the other person, gosh it’s

00:24:47,000 –> 00:26:51,000

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, as you were saying that I was thinking around that shared experience of some things and… We try to fix it or we try to positive psychology. Oh, don’t be so glam or just bright so we try and do all these things often because we uncomfortable with the hair. So we’re finding– of “oh, I don’t like that they’re not okay, I don’t like that they’re struggling”. And pain and struggle are a natural part of the human condition. And just as we have joy and happiness, we’ll have… Sadness, and if you’ve watched Inside Out you’ll seen in the first one there’s some really good clips on YouTube type in sadness and empathy around how we need those feelings like we can’t have love and not feel grief when that’s gone we can’t have you know joy and happiness and excitement without feeling maybe trepidation anxiety and it varies and then when its you know particular emotions are coming up longer and getting in the way of day to day functioning then it might be into a mental ill health space but it’s being able to sometimes even say just giving the person a hug or sitting there in silence. That’s sometimes more effective than trying to fix it or take it away because it’s, it’s invalidating and often, and I’ve experienced it on the receiving end, I’ve probably done it and I see it a lot with, with couples I work with. They don’t get happier. They just start to learn, I can’t talk to you about this stuff. So that they don’t start thinking, well, you know, you’re right, I should just be optimistic. so much. I didn’t think of it that way before. They’re just like, yeah, okay. You’re right. And then mental note, I can’t talk to my partner about work stuff. Yeah. Whether you’re saying that to yourself actively, or it just becomes a part of your experience where you inadvertently just stopped talking about

00:26:52,000 –> 00:28:45,000

Michelle Janssen: There’s so many things I guess in that that you just said that are. really important. I think with what you were saying, just like that. curiosity, being willing to get it wrong, compassionate guessing. Or, as I talk about with my couples sometimes, embrace the awkward. If you don’t know what to say say, “I don’t know what to say, but I’m here.” keep talking. Or even I feel awkward, I don’t know what to do with you. but let’s be in this together, you know, fun. phrasing that works for you, it’s okay to be tentative. We don’t need to be saying the perfect things all the time. We can show up imperfectly. Again, I do that in my own life, you know, just, particular if I don’t underline it. I can’t understand maybe some things about my partner’s work, for example, but I try and just… and ask questions and you know, that kind of stuff, which can feel awkward at first, but I think if we embrace it, gosh, there’s so much real connection that can come out of that. And I think what you were saying, people have that discomfort with pain hey like the I don’t know if someone… “Don’t cry, I don’t want you to be upset.” Or I notice in sessions a lot people will say, if they start crying I say, “I’m sorry for crying.” And… people do it because there’s a discomfort. and it’s kind of like, well, this is just a spectrum of emotions. This is okay. This is an expression of… happening in this moment. And, yeah, grief, if we want to broadly label it that in this context, it is a very important uncomfortable. awkward. But sitting with it, I think is a better way to do it.

00:28:46,000 –> 00:30:45,000

Marie Vakakis: that many things can be true at the same time. And if you’re the person who’s listening, who wants to fix it, change your job description or change the KPIs. The way to fix it is to be there, to be available, to be present, to listen. If you’re the solutions person. solution is in the relationship. Sometimes the content of what that and saying matters, but it’s the process. always get into these conversations with people, we could interchange, fight about the dishwasher, fight about work. The content can keep changing. The process of how we talk about it, feeling heard and understood, that’s how you “fix it” and if we bring it back to myths about couples therapy, I think one thing people don’t realise, a happy healthy relationship isn’t the absence makeup of your personality of your preference. give you little prickles in the relationship. And that conflict is not avoidable. We need, and when we handle it well, it brings you closer, it builds trust because then, you know, we can have a bit of a rupture. bit of a tough patch and we can then talk about it. from it and it builds that trust it means you start to think I know I can’t do it. it, that you’re not going to abandon me, you’re not going to storm out, I’m not going to be alone.

00:30:46,000 –> 00:33:22,000

Michelle Janssen: we will get through it and we will learn from it and we will be closer because of it. feel in myself, in and clients and people that I know, like just that you. learning to know that we will come back to this and we will. this issue, right? That we can trust each other to effectively repair from conflict. And you know, like you just said, their conflict can bring us closer. Sometimes when I say that to people, they look at me. from the moon. It’s kind of like, what are you talking about? And I think it’s about clarifying that, you know, when we say conflict, we don’t mean- necessarily screaming and shouting and things you know. ComFwip doesn’t have any of that. to look like that. Like I think when people say things as well, like we don’t fight, often what they mean in– Yeah, we don’t scream and shout at each other. if you can do conflict well. means things like can we be gentle with each other? Can we notice when we’re dysregulated? Can we ask for what we need? Talk about what we’re feeling. because underneath every conflict or every complaint as the Gottman’s talk There’s a longing, right? There’s that need that isn’t being met. And some people will say and come in and We always fight about the smallest things and it just escalates. But then when we start to unpack it, it’s soon to be discovered quite often that it’s how you’re talking about those small things. you know if it’s always the dishwasher and… kids and the whatever it is, and there’s often a dream underneath that, dream underneath the. And if we can unlock that, it doesn’t mean… of hard themes or tensions or getting… each other, or that we don’t show up well together. sometimes, you know, we will stuff up, we will need to repair. But just the relief that I’ve seen in people when they know how to do that gently, the conflict, and I always want to clarify you can still be very emotive. It doesn’t mean we’re all nice and polite and you know sitting there like little angels. You can still… I feel so frustrated. I’m so…

00:33:23,000 –> 00:36:14,000

Marie Vakakis: But being able to do it well just reduces that negative escalation and yeah, it’s often that key that can build so much trust, I think. I want to share a made up example that I think highlights what you’re saying about the interpretation we make of certain things, but then the conflict that’s safe, this comes up. But let’s say you’re in. the female partner. and… complaining shit like my partner just doesn’t care about me because if he cared he would know to bring me. a hate pack. and a cup of tea and… Watch a… or even leave me to watch something. show or a movie or sit with me on the couch and snuggle. but he hasn’t done it. They don’t say… that. So then little comments. thinking and be like, oh hey babe, do you want dinner? Oh, so you’re ready to cook now, huh? Or do something for me. Or it’s like, hey, you know, do you want to do something Friday? It’s like, really? That’s the only thing that you think we need to do. Like, there’s little comments that going but behind that is, can’t you see I’m in pain. clearly don’t care because if you cared you would do xyz which… part of this formula that I have. Maybe I saw my dad do. Or maybe that’s what I do for my girlfriends. Like it’s common sense. Why wouldn’t you? Of course, they’re in pain. You bring them some ibuprofen, a heat pack. It’s just… of tea, it’s just what it is. But if you were sitting at discomfort a little bit… say “oh babe I’m really not feeling well, I’ve got my period, could you make me a cup of tea and get me a heat pack?” After one or two times of that they then kind of learn, “oh they’re need and then you might have… More success in the future of them being like a Hey, how you feeling today or what’s going on like I, it’s not good I think I’m getting my period and they’re like up message received I know what I need to do here. And they genuinely do that because they genuinely want to help and they didn’t know that that’s how you wanted that to be received so sometimes the conflict you know if we were to bring that example into a couple’s therapy situations. Yes, we talk about the most smallest things, but they representative of a deeper issue. It’s actually being able to unpack that and be like, when they’re saying you’re not listening to me, you just don’t care. And one partner is looking completely. “Okay, I have no idea what you’re talking about” and then they might react with, “Well, you don’t care because you’re not good enough for me.” talked about this and it’s like I’ll beat you and then it’s like the list of all the stuff and then it’s like a tennis match. So if we can unpack that and come to the core of that, you can see how that would bring it closer together.

00:36:15,000 –> 00:38:43,000

Michelle Janssen: Absolutely, yeah. And again, I think maybe it’s for all of us about investigating, “What’s my idea about how we should function in a relationship, but also where do they go?” So you know, you mentioned they should just know, or it’s going to be a good thing. And, you know, again, there’s always nuance to situations. So maybe you have tried to say that before and it’s not getting through, but in general, say what really works is just that very clear… Can we have a conversation about this is what I need at my time of the month? Or this is how I could signal to you that I’m starting to feel not great. This is what fills my cup. we feel really good and having those conversations, like you say, why wouldn’t you want to spell it out to get your needs met? because if it’s in a work… it. And of course, If you have done that, please leave a like. then becomes this thing where they’re not having those needs, where you’re not having those needs, man. but it’s a different conversation about why. Would you get a couples therapy? Oh yes I have Finn. Yeah. it sitting on the other side? Well I did it before I was a therapist. So you loved it. I loved it that much. I was like, “Oh, man, this is my life’s mission.” No. (laughs) passionate about healthy relationships. I think I was always going to end up in that kind of field somehow. But would I go to couples therapy? Absolutely. Because what we learned from it, oh goodness, so much, so much about how to communicate really effectively, which I think tends to come in and say, you know, that how can we do better with our communic… I think now it would be harder for me because you know for being in the field of therapy. to go to, that would be hard. confidentiality wise like I’ll see you at that conference, you know. So that logistically I think would be trickier but in general absolutely I practice what I preach in that way because I believe in the power and the connection of it and sometimes I guess you kind of look at it as maintenance too like, or I do anyway, that maybe we just need to do these little pieces of work to, you know, emotional top-ups to help our relationship belong. So yeah,

00:38:43,000 –> 00:41:58,000

Marie Vakakis: if we hit a patch where we were struggling or if we – not even struggling – if we just needed assistance with talking about goals or what we needed or what’s next in life. Absolutely I would go but again, yeah, who’s someone that I don’t know? Who am I going to run into?! I’m the same. I’ve had several different therapists in the past, some great, one or two absolutely around. I love… them as part of my work so I’ve got I’ve literally just all. I’ve written probably 10 Gottman books. I’m setting myself a challenge as I’m on the certification track to read every single book they’ve written. Oh wow, you’re good. Yeah, it’s really fun. And when I bring one of those books to my partner, I think initially, because he had some of those same ideas perhaps around couples. So it means something’s wrong or, you know, a self-help book is something bad. And so we had to have that conversation around. and the other is… Oh no i just i like therapy and it’s part of well being and growth and they’ve suggested to their partner hey let’s go to couple’s therapy their partner might be filled with anxiety of oh my god are they going to break up with me and they’re going to dump this big disclosure. you only get a couple of seconds. That’s not a… relief for them of they don’t even consider there are other options. that that’s the truth. And so then you might get this tension there because it means something different to you both. And that’s okay, it can. How do you have a conversation about that? And then what’s the compromise? Like, is it let’s try it? Look, I don’t feel like we need that yet. Or I’m uncomfortable disclosing things to a person. And so then you might think, well, then there’s, you know, this online course we can do, there’s this workbook we can do. Maybe I’ll talk to my therapist and see if they can recommend a couple. sources, so there’s different supports and interventions and things you can experiment with at different points of comfort, different price points, different interests. Absolutely.

00:41:58,000 –> 00:43:27,000

Michelle Janssen: my partner and I are doing. The art and science of love workshop by the Gottmanns, right? And so that’s an introductory, it’s a softer entry to therapy essentially, right? So it’s, we’re just doing it online on demand, but I know there’s live. shop as well, but really that’s just a bag. some exercises and some learning about what these concepts are. So if that’s all, like some people I know do that, like just once a year is a top up, like where are our gaps, you know, and where do we need to, to focus on? So absolutely there are other ways. And I think on that, what I’ll say too, is that sometimes as you start to delve into, gosh, who do we go to? What were the, the, the, the, the? what’s legit, what’s not. As you are searching for someone or something to work with, have a look at what the evidence base is, have a look at what their person’s qualifications are. You know, like you’re probably looking for somebody who… well, is university qualified, has a, as a regulatory body, has done some specific training in couples work. That’s important because I do believe it is a specialty. So again, you know, like we’ve talked about, we’ve gotmen trained, you know, they’ve done decades and decades of research. So as you’re navigating all these different options, I think if you can be looking for that, that can be really helpful as you start to sort through it. Yeah, fantastic. And I’ve made a note of some.

00:43:28,000 –> 00:43:53,000

Marie Vakakis: there’ll be a resource link in the show notes. Thank you so much for busting myths with me. There’ll be a whole series around couples work and all these sort of behind the scenes stuff, so I’m glad to have you contribute to that series for Folk.

00:43:54,000 –> 00:44:25,000

Michelle Janssen: vulnerable moments, people’s most joyous moments. And I say this in all sincerity, I think rarely do many weeks go by where I don’t have a moment of just thinking, “You know, as couples get it, that this is just magic. This is really powerful. This is — ” If we can really work together, and we can all work together, then we can all work together. the life that you want and I know that that sometimes can sound a bit, you know, airy-fairy, but it’s just, yeah, it’s magic, the way I really believe that.

00:44:26,000 –> 00:44:28,000

Marie Vakakis: And thanks so much.

00:44:29,000 –> 00:44:32,000

Michelle Janssen: (gentle music)

00:44:32,000 –> 00:44:43,000

Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening. To keep the conversation going head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn. me. If you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health join my weekly this conference.