[00:00:00] Andrea Dindinger : I don’t think you and I’d be doing this work if we didn’t think it was possible to recover. I think it just depends on what recovery looks like for that couple. Is recovery really staying together? If it is, then that’s where a lot of accountability, a lot of non-defensive ness. The subtle little ways that you turn away from your partner, whether it’s they’re talking to you and you pick up your phone, they ask you a question and you don’t answer because you’re focused in another way.

[00:00:34] Andrea Dindinger : There’s all these subtle ways that we shut off that connection. We don’t do empty the dishwasher or subtle things where they’re making that bid for connection. People turn away and it’s not, we don’t wanna blame anyway, but it’s just, it’s such a great practice for people to go like, oh, I turned away in this way and this way and this way this week.

[00:00:57] Andrea Dindinger : And if both people are recognising it, [00:01:00] then both people have the opportunity to go, oh, when I pick up my phone. I’m turning away from you or subtle little things that say, Hey, you matter to me and I don’t wanna turn away from you. It’s not that you want to, you know, forgive and forget because I don’t actually think anybody would do that or does that, but it’s more that place of like finding that sense of peace inside and recognising like, I can forgive you, but I haven’t forgotten.

[00:01:25] Andrea Dindinger : And when I haven’t forgotten it means that if a memory comes up and I need to talk about it. I need my partner to talk about it with me and be willing to again, own it. Acknowledge that it makes sense what I am feeling, and be open to hearing all the crazy stories. 

[00:01:43] Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome to this Complex Life.

[00:01:45] Marie Vakakis: Today I have a guest with me from the other side of the world, Andrea Dindinger, and. Andrea is like me, a family, uh, marriage and family therapist, or we don’t have the marriage and family therapist qualification here in Australia. That’s exactly quite the same, but [00:02:00] LMFT, I’m guessing. So welcome to the podcast, Andrea.

[00:02:03] Marie Vakakis: Thank you so much, Marie. We’ve been talking, oh, it’s been a lot in the news, I guess, around affairs and betrayal, and I know I’ve done a little bit of a few episodes about it. In fact, one particular interesting one was people having affairs with their AI chat pod. But maybe we won’t go there today, but what do you think people misunderstand about betrayal and infidelity?

[00:02:27] Andrea Dindinger : It’s interesting to think about, you know, people who cheat on their partners aren’t necessarily bad people. They’re not mean awful people. I think of them as kind of immature, lacking some skills, lacking the ability to. Communicate what they’re experiencing within their life, within their marriage. And whether it’s I, you know, I’m feeling lonely or I’m not feeling like we’re connecting, I think they’re lacking those skills.

[00:02:56] Andrea Dindinger : And so it’s super easy just to turn and be like, Ooh, [00:03:00] shiny new object. You’re giving me your attention. We’re really focusing on each other, and the betrayal happens just like that. 

[00:03:10] Marie Vakakis: How do you define betrayal, or how does it show up in the couples or the individuals that you work with? Because this is something I’ve been really probably grappling with as I dig deeper and I read forums and posts from people.

[00:03:23] Marie Vakakis: The definitions vary quite a lot. 

[00:03:25] Andrea Dindinger : Mm-hmm. You know, anything from people who are, you know, on OnlyFans sites and you know, paying for that, I think of that as betrayal. Obviously having, you know, an extramarital physical and emotional affair feels like betrayal. I think that the, even the emotional part of a, an affair is probably what is most damaging when somebody, you know, really gives their energy and attention.

[00:03:50] Andrea Dindinger : But, you know, somebody engaging with a prostitute, you know, is looking at somebody’s. Somebody was saying something about how they thought, you know, their partner looking [00:04:00] at pornography was a betrayal. And I don’t think of it that way, but I do think there’s probably a spectrum, but it’s whenever you’re like turning away from your partner.

[00:04:12] Andrea Dindinger : I was even thinking when your spouse gives you a present. You return it, how hurt and betrayed they actually feel by that. You know, that’s a small little bee betrayal. That’s not the kind we’re talking about, but I think there’s all these little ways. I think also people engage in betrayal, you know, with financial infidelity where they’re opening credit cards and.

[00:04:34] Andrea Dindinger : You know, hiding, you know, their spending from their spouse. I think it happens in so many subtle and gigantic ways. 

[00:04:42] Marie Vakakis: You mentioned earlier a lack of emotional maturity, I think you were alluding to, and that really reminded me of when I. Unpack this with some couples, it’s often when one person brings up their concern, how the other responds, that’s [00:05:00] where the extra pain starts of you are spending a lot of time with person X and instead of them turning around and saying, yeah, you’re right, I haven’t actually spent much time with you, and see that as a bid for connection.

[00:05:13] Marie Vakakis: Or their partner makes a comment like, oh, you’re always out with so and so. And instead of ’em saying, yeah, I am, or sounds like you wanna hang out, you know, the defensiveness comes the Oh, but you, but you the, and then how they talk about that in its early days before it’s even a big issue. Mm-hmm. Seems to be the cause of more of the pain.

[00:05:35] Marie Vakakis: And then terms like manipulation and gaslighting and all these things get thrown in when I think it’s people feeling. Mis attuned, not heard, invalidated to partly getting defensive, which then when they do find out it’s an affair is even more like it shakes their ability to trust themselves. I know. Do you see this show up for your, 

[00:05:57] Andrea Dindinger : in your work?

[00:05:58] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. 

[00:05:58] Andrea Dindinger : For sure. I think, you [00:06:00] know, the thing I really try and work with my couples around is really that defensiveness, taking accountability for, you know, what they’ve done, whether or not they meant to hurt the the other person or not. Just really being able to say like, it hurt you when I bought the wrong kind of chicken.

[00:06:17] Andrea Dindinger : You know, clearly I didn’t mean to, but it hurt you ’cause you’re stressed about the dinner party and helping people to own their actions, own their behaviors. Oh, it, I was late. Me being late caused you to stress and that hurt you. And I acknowledge that and I apologise for that. Really just owning it in that really very specific, clear way and helping them feel like nobody’s gonna die.

[00:06:44] Andrea Dindinger : If you are imperfect. Nobody’s gonna die if you’ve done something that’s hurt your spouse. But where it’s really damaging is when you start attacking your spouse back for the way that. You’ve hurt that it feels, you know, it feels so [00:07:00] counterproductive. 

[00:07:00] Marie Vakakis: One of the, the struggles that I see people have in this, and if I, if I could tail tell, like, get a megaphone and shout it out, is it doesn’t matter necessarily what your intention was.

[00:07:12] Marie Vakakis: You’re not saying that I agree, I did this to hurt you. It’s acknowledging this hurt you. You might’ve had a great reason there might’ve, you might’ve stopped to do CPR on someone on your way home. That’s all of those reasons are fair and valid and fine. And it’s still okay to say it makes sense that you are upset.

[00:07:31] Marie Vakakis: I was running late and we had plans. Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:34] Andrea Dindinger : That’s it. I think that that phrase, it makes sense that you are, whatever the feeling is. I think that one phrase, if everybody could memorise that phrase and their partner gets frustrated about anything, it makes sense that you’re frustrated about X, Y, and z. I think it’s.

[00:07:53] Andrea Dindinger : Then that makes the person feel validated and seen and not crazy. 

[00:07:57] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And then for the other person, one of the phrases I get them to [00:08:00] say, and I’m pretty sure I borrowed this off, Brene Brown, is the story I’m telling myself is, 

[00:08:05] Andrea Dindinger : oh yeah, 

[00:08:05] Marie Vakakis: I love that phrase. So then being able to say when you are late, the story I’m telling myself is, I’m not important to you.

[00:08:11] Marie Vakakis: And then free, you know, have that dialogue. There used to be, I think it’s gone in waves now. I’m not old enough to have got a very historical, accurate kind of depiction of affairs and people staying together. It feels like there was a time where people just had to suck it up. Mostly women. They didn’t have the financial means to leave if their spouse cheated or maybe in some circles it was even frowned upon to care.

[00:08:35] Marie Vakakis: It was just sort of like you just have to. Suck it up. That’s the way things are. And then some, in some ways, it flip or it’s like leave. You can, and now I’m seeing people feel judged for staying and feel judged for leaving. Mm-hmm. And I’m not sure how to navigate some of this, but is it possible when people have a betrayal and infidelity.

[00:08:58] Marie Vakakis: Thinking more around [00:09:00] sort of sexual, romantic rather than betrayal of finances, which I guess mm-hmm. Has similar ways of healing. Is it possible to recover from that? 

[00:09:09] Andrea Dindinger : I don’t think you and I would be doing this work if we didn’t think it was possible to recover. I think it just depends on what recovery looks like for that couple.

[00:09:18] Andrea Dindinger : Is recovery really staying together? If it is, then that’s where a lot of accountability, a lot of non offensiveness, like a lot of spaciousness around somebody washing the dishes and having that twinge of memory or feeling and being able to say, I was just thinking about how last year at this time you lied to me.

[00:09:39] Andrea Dindinger : And for the spouse that wants to stay in this marriage to be like, that was a year ago. Thank you so much for bringing it up. It’s such a hurtful memory. Not to be like, am I never gonna be, you know, is it never enough? Like, can I ever be forgiven? I thought we were past this. Like that [00:10:00] prolongs the hurt unnecessarily.

[00:10:03] Andrea Dindinger : But it’s such a hard thing to teach and it’s such a hard thing to practice for people just to go like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That really hurt you, even though that may have been 10 years ago that really hurt you and I feel terrible about it still to this day. I was thinking about it myself, right? And just that kind of coaching people to own their behavior without getting defensive.

[00:10:25] Andrea Dindinger : I think that’s where the healing is possible. 

[00:10:28] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I think that’s a really important piece there, because. When I’ve, the training I’ve done talks about betrayal as having for the betrayed spouse, a lot of symptoms that mirror PTSD, and so you’ll get the flashbacks, you’ll get the triggers, and it could be when a phone rings or you see your partner put their phone in, take it with them to the bathroom instead of leaving it on table.

[00:10:52] Marie Vakakis: There might be all these subtle things that. Are really meaningless in that moment, but they weren’t at some point in your history. [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. Or you’re looking now for, you’re hypervigilant and yeah. Looking on the lookout for those, how the other person responds is really important. It’s almost that dismissiveness is invalidating.

[00:11:13] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And then I get it for the other person. They’re like, oh my gosh, we’ve talked this to death. When will I be let off the hook? Isn’t this over yet? You should be over it by now. You know, I didn’t mean. And I worry that when that defensiveness gets evoked, they might revert to old coping habits and coping strategies.

[00:11:31] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, for sure. To deal with the discomfort and frustration of shame even. And so, 

[00:11:38] Andrea Dindinger : yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that’s where that piece of emotional maturity comes in and you know, for the person who’s betrayed their partner to really look at like, what was going on for me?

[00:11:53] Andrea Dindinger : Was I drinking a whole bunch? Was I stressed? Was I not taking care of myself? Was I kind of [00:12:00] like, was this a signal that I needed some help? Like what was that? You know, so often I’ll hear, especially a man say, well, we just weren’t having enough. We weren’t even having sex, or we weren’t having enough sex.

[00:12:12] Andrea Dindinger : So then I always say like, okay, well that may be factually true, but then let’s dig into like what was underneath that, how, what kind of emotional connection was being nurtured, and how can we nurture that emotional connection so that the libidinal connection can be alive and robust and desirable. And so then it’s like.

[00:12:32] Andrea Dindinger : I think people begin to understand that like, oh, there was other things that were happening, so why was I turning away? When did I notice I first started to turn away? I think all of that kind of investigation and inquiry work is really part of that person’s emotional maturity, so that. You know, two years later when their spouse brings it up again, they have the ability to say like, whoa, that’s, it’s really hard for me to hear.

[00:12:59] Andrea Dindinger : I’m [00:13:00] like, sad that you’re thinking about this still, and I get it. It was such a terribly painful time. Right? Like all of that, they can still have their feelings, but they can only do that if they’ve been doing some of their own emotional work to really understand what was happening inside for them. 

[00:13:17] Marie Vakakis: Hmm.

[00:13:18] Marie Vakakis: That’s so powerful. If I, I think I would almost cry if I witnessed a conversation like that, like the raw honesty, pain, but also what a beautiful chance for connection that you can know This person hurt me. I have forgiven them, and when things arise that still are painful, they can be my greatest comfort too.

[00:13:41] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:43] Andrea Dindinger : They’re actually probably the only one who can fully comfort their spouse. Right. Their friend, their, you know, their kid, their mother, their neighbor, you know, can be like, oh, I understand, but they can’t be the reassurance or the, [00:14:00] you know, the truth, sayer, or you know, like they can’t be the one to say like.

[00:14:03] Andrea Dindinger : You know, they might be like, well, maybe he’s cheating again, or maybe she’s cheating again. Where the person who was the, you know, the, the cheater, I hate that word, but cheater, you know, their ability to really own their side of things today, next week, you know, next year, five years. I think they’re the primary person who can soothe and restore that trust that they’ve broken.

[00:14:27] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. The phrase, the turning away I think really captures this well because when I’ve looked at things like pornography or people exploring, I dunno, swingers party, there are certain activities that, for some people might seem like a betrayal, but. Coming back to this, is it turning away or towards? So if it’s something we are doing together and it ignites us and brings us pleasure and joy and fun, it’s not turning away.

[00:14:54] Marie Vakakis: And so I really like that as a kind of way to distill the boundary that’s been crossed [00:15:00] there. Is it moving away from an avoidance or disclosing to someone else? And this is where the emotional affairs I see as being really painful because you are then telling someone else. Outside your relationship, all of these things that your partner, maybe you haven’t even spoke to them about, or some people think they’ve spoken to their partner about it, but they’ve only said it as a complaint or a criticism, not as a, Hey, this is actually not, not going so well.

[00:15:27] Marie Vakakis: And so you’re starting to, it’s the turning away. Moving away avoiding of something. Is that how you kind of meant that phrase? Is that what Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:15:36] Andrea Dindinger : Yeah, and I like to give homework to my couples for a week. Pay attention to the, the subtle little ways that you turn away from your partner, whether it’s they’re talking to you and you pick up your phone, they ask you a question and you don’t answer because you’re focused in another way.

[00:15:56] Andrea Dindinger : You come home late or you, you know, they ask you like, there’s all [00:16:00] these subtle ways that we shut off that connection. We don’t do empty the dishwasher or, you know, subtle things where they’re making that, that weight, that bid for connection and people turn away and it’s not, we don’t wanna blame anyway, but it’s just, it’s such a great practice for people to go like.

[00:16:20] Andrea Dindinger : I turned away in this way and this way and this way this week. And if both people are recognising it, then both people have the opportunity to go, oh, when I pick up my phone, I’m turning away from you. I’m still gonna probably do that because we’re addicted to these things. However, I’m gonna put it in the drawer.

[00:16:39] Andrea Dindinger : When we’re in the kitchen together or just come subtle little things that say, Hey, you matter to me and I don’t wanna turn away from you. 

[00:16:47] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. I think that’s the the key thing that we really want, isn’t it? Like I’m thinking about, I, I do family therapy as well, and most, most of the time, that’s the key thing, is people want to know, do I matter to you?

[00:16:59] Marie Vakakis: Do I matter? [00:17:00] And that’s the biggest betrayal there is. If you can do that to me. Then I don’t matter. And what does that say about me? Mm-hmm. And what does that say about our family? Yeah. Or what I’ve sacrificed, what I’ve given up, or accommodations I’ve made compromises my worth. One of the phrases I hear people say.

[00:17:21] Marie Vakakis: Is if I forgive them too soon, it’s like I’ve let them off the hook and then they think they can do this again. And this is the only, you know, punishment they have is a few therapy sessions. So how do you work through that? I guess difficulty for people, for the The hurt partner. Who might want to salvage things, but things, if it’s too soon, they’ve gotten away with it, they’ve done this awful thing, and there’s been no impact to their life.

[00:17:54] Andrea Dindinger : I think that goes back to that place of being able to set up an agreement between both [00:18:00] spouses that if, you know, six years from now it comes up for me and I need to speak about it or. Six months from now, I try and help people recognise that that feeling of anger and hurt and betrayal and just that rage that lives inside of them is actually not good for their nervous system.

[00:18:23] Andrea Dindinger : And so it’s not that you want to, you know, forgive and forget because I don’t actually think anybody will do that or does that, but it’s more that place of like finding that sense of peace inside and recognising like. I can forgive you, but I haven’t forgotten. And when I haven’t forgotten, it means that if a memory comes up and I need to talk about it, I need my partner to talk about it with me and be willing to, again, own it, acknowledge that it makes sense what I’m feeling, and be open to hearing, you know, all the crazy stories.

[00:18:56] Andrea Dindinger : Oh, I pieced this one thing together and I [00:19:00] think you didn’t tell me about this. That kind of place of like, oh, I thought I, we got over all of this. And that acknowledgement that you’re right, I didn’t disclose that piece and I’m so sad that it’s coming out now and it’s rehiring you again. And it’s a, you know, it’s, I would love to hear your thoughts.

[00:19:20] Andrea Dindinger : I’m like, how much do you disclose? Like how much transparency and you know, how many details do you find that it is, you know, helpful for the spouses to share? 

[00:19:33] Marie Vakakis: I think it’s varied. I think each case is quite unique in that, and I wouldn’t. Want explicit details about any sort of sexual acts, but maybe locations or work trips that weren’t work trips, those sorts of things.

[00:19:48] Marie Vakakis: Because going through enough with the partner, I mean, I use the Gottman attune attached model, and so in that atonement phase, it is answering as many of those questions. And if I’m, I’m sensing that it’s [00:20:00] particularly difficult, I might do another individual session with each person, one for the betrayed partner to maybe get their thoughts.

[00:20:08] Marie Vakakis: Down in a way that feels containing for them because if they get too dysregulated in the session, we can calm it down, but we might not lose valuable time. That’s not the right word. But we might have a more fruitful conversation if some of that work can go in behind the scenes. And then also some work with the other partner to improve their tolerance.

[00:20:29] Marie Vakakis: To sitting in, in that space. So to try not to get too activated to sit in that discomfort a little bit. So it, it is a bit of a dance. I’d be trying to find enough information that it. I don’t actually think the person wants all the information all the time. I think they just wanna know that there’s nothing else you haven’t told me that I’m not gonna be made a full of, rather than wanting to know the minutia.

[00:20:53] Marie Vakakis: The question I I had that was coming up for me is, you know, for the partner that has done the betraying, [00:21:00] what if I. If they’ve been turning away, that can sometimes come because the relationship satisfaction is low. How do they find enough satisfaction in the relationship to sit there through all that atoning when they weren’t happy in the relationship to begin with, they had one foot out.

[00:21:20] Marie Vakakis: They were seeking that support from another person. How do we get enough? Because the tricky thing is it requires a lot of dedication and work to sit there in that discomfort, to own the pain, to navigate feelings of shame that might come up. Mm-hmm. And often in a situation where maybe for six months, a year, two years, three years, your relationship hasn’t been great.

[00:21:46] Marie Vakakis: So how do they find the resource? To work that hard to salvage something that they can’t remember feeling that fondly about in recent memory. 

[00:21:57] Andrea Dindinger : I mean, a lot don’t, right? A lot [00:22:00] just go their separate ways. I think it’s the people who do want to make it work, even though they’ve had one foot out and their head turned and are super disconnected.

[00:22:10] Andrea Dindinger : I think the thing that happens when people are, have an, you know, an infidelity, there’s so much energy. There’s just so much energy within that couple. This person is, you know, taking this energy outside of the marriage and there’s a lot of contact, there’s a lot of fighting, there’s a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of adrenaline, there’s a lot of dopamine.

[00:22:33] Andrea Dindinger : There’s, you know, there’s just a lot of that intensity that’s coming up. And what I try and help people do is like really connect around what has happened and notice how they actually feel. Closer, right? There’s an exchange of, you know, there’s kind of a little bit of oxytocin that’s exchanged in that connection that they, when they’re able to really be present, and that’s that [00:23:00] feeling that, you know, that feels really good.

[00:23:02] Andrea Dindinger : And so I think it’s that place of like, it feels awful and feelings aren’t gonna kill us. And if we can be here with them, they actually have the, the ability to transform and create a really deep and satisfying connection. 

[00:23:17] Marie Vakakis: How do we help people navigate knowing that one person can’t meet all your needs?

[00:23:24] Marie Vakakis: So you can spread out what you need to different people, but that not be an affair. So I’m thinking enriching friendships, trusting, nurturing conversations. You might want to have your first draft of something with a kind of confidant. And I’ve worked with some couples where a female has significant sexual abuse history and they’ve agreed that it’s okay for the male partner to use sex workers, and that has been agreed to.

[00:23:53] Marie Vakakis: Hasn’t been seen as a turning away from, it’s been a, mm-hmm. Completely consented, [00:24:00] budgeted for sort of thing. Just like someone else might need to get a massage or have something. So how do we find this balance of adjusting our expectations? But not with a sense of selfishness and entitlement, but creating a richer network around a couple.

[00:24:18] Marie Vakakis: That’s probably a big question. 

[00:24:21] Andrea Dindinger : I mean, to me, it just all boils down to that kind of communication, that kind of validation, that sense of safety, that. You know, to be able to talk about one’s sexual abuse with their spouse and to recognise that it is causing a significant amount of distress and trauma for them to engage in, to have sex, and that this is a, you know, it’s a mutually agreed upon system.

[00:24:46] Andrea Dindinger : I’ve had a couple of couples who have started off with that agreement, and I guess it’s been three couples I’ve had that and not one of them has made it through. They’re no longer married. And I think it’s, you know, [00:25:00] the, at least in the ones I know about personally, it’s been this like, well, I’m never gonna have sex with you, so you might as well just take care of yourself.

[00:25:08] Andrea Dindinger : But there was never an agreement that we were gonna get divorced, but just almost the dismissiveness of that was, I think that’s what was so hurtful to the partner who then did go and. Seek, you know, sexual relationships outside of the marriage. So I think it’s so subtle and it’s in that tone and how you communicate and how both people are holding it really intimately and very, very tenderly.

[00:25:34] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. As we sort of wrap, I mean I could talk about this for hours, I’ve sort of been doing a deep dive on affairs and infidelity ’cause it, when I was a baby therapist, it was very much. Right or wrong, you cheated. That’s it. You’re out. And that’s how I would’ve approached everything. And then doing my couples therapy training and, and reading a bit more about, and hearing the nuance.

[00:25:53] Marie Vakakis: I have so much more understanding of the complexity. If people are listening and they’re wanting [00:26:00] to learn a bit more. Maybe they’re curious or they’re trying to navigate some of this for themselves. Do you have any good DIY books or podcasts, anything that they can sort of start absorbing if they’re not quite ready for 

[00:26:14] Andrea Dindinger : therapy 

[00:26:15] Marie Vakakis: yet?

[00:26:15] Andrea Dindinger : I mean, I love Esther Pearl’s book m in captivity. I think the one piece about this book is that, you know, infidelity is as old as as time like it’s something that’s happened. For Millennium. And so I think that one fact helps you understand that this is maybe part of our relational dynamics, like in our genetics in some ways.

[00:26:43] Andrea Dindinger : And so I think it, it kind of normalises it in such a, it just felt really generous. It such a generous way of normalising it. And I think it helps couples, that book in itself helps couples really kind of navigate through. Some of these dynamics and I [00:27:00] just, I really, really love that book. 

[00:27:02] Marie Vakakis: Are you thinking the state of affairs?

[00:27:05] Marie Vakakis: Oh yeah. Yeah. Maybe it is the student affairs, although 

[00:27:06] Andrea Dindinger : read both. They’re excellent. Yeah, they’re both excellent books. And then I think that there’s a lot of benefits that come with sitting down with a therapist and having that conversation and getting support where you’re like. You know, if somebody is like, I’m really flirting with a coworker.

[00:27:24] Andrea Dindinger : Maybe I should actually talk to somebody and get some support around this, so then I could potentially talk to my, to my spouse about what’s going on inside. I don’t know. I think those are the kind of main things that I think about. 

[00:27:37] Marie Vakakis: Hmm. I love those two books. They definitely have helped shape my language around working with infidelity, and if it’s around purely sexual.

[00:27:46] Marie Vakakis: Needs and gratification. I would say. Emily NGO’s books come as You Are and come together because sometimes it’s people, it’s not that they don’t want sex, they don’t want the sex they’re [00:28:00] having, or there’s a whole other dance around that. And so understanding. That and the analogy she uses around sort of breaks and acceleration and understanding what is happening at different life stages, whether it’s parenting, busy times at work, going back to study, looking after aged parents being aged, going through menopause, prostate, like there’d be all of these things happening.

[00:28:25] Marie Vakakis: The landscape changes. We can keep updating that knowledge of each other, whether it’s emotionally, sexually, all of these things. So I think that one, I recommend those books to folk as well. And if people want to get in touch with you, how can they get in touch? What do you offer? Can you practice outside of California?

[00:28:45] Andrea Dindinger : I do relationship coaching outside of California. So it’s, you know. It’s the same thing as therapy. It’s a little bit different. I, I think slightly, but my website is probably the best place to find me therapy with Andrea. Love. [00:29:00] It’s got a ton of resources, a ton of different tools. I’ve got a, a course, like a little mini course coming out mid-August that’s around.

[00:29:10] Andrea Dindinger : The looping conversations and the looping fights that we get into in our marriages and how to break those loops and break those patterns, which, you know, I think ties into even, you know, all of this, this just like five. It’s really, it’s very inexpensive and it’s very useful, tangible tools to help people navigate those kind of conflicts that happen in every single marriage.

[00:29:33] Andrea Dindinger : You know, multiple times a month, sometimes multiple times a week. Yes. On what life stage they’re in. Right. They’ve just had children and their life’s blowing up. Yeah, absolutely. And they’re having to expand. 

[00:29:45] Marie Vakakis: I love that. We definitely looping conversations. Yep. Just the same thing. You can’t believe you’re still fighting about it.

[00:29:52] Marie Vakakis: Right. Well, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for making the time to have a chat about this topic that. I think some of this can be kept quite secret, [00:30:00] so I think it’s been nice to spend a little bit of time and unpack it and give people some ideas and tools of what to do next. I think that’s where that 

[00:30:08] Andrea Dindinger : Coldplay, you know, exposure thing was so powerful ’cause it really brought it.

[00:30:14] Andrea Dindinger : Outward into the forefront so people could 

[00:30:17] Marie Vakakis: grapple with that. And if you do see an increase in affairs with people’s chatbots, hit me up because we can do another episode on that. I’m dying to do a, I would love to a guest interview on that ’cause I’ve done a solo episode. But it is fascinating and people buy lingerie for their chap like it.

[00:30:35] Marie Vakakis: Check it out. It’s very, uh, new. So if you, 

[00:30:39] Andrea Dindinger : I have not thankfully had that yet. 

[00:30:41] Marie Vakakis: When you do let me know, 

[00:30:43] Andrea Dindinger : when I do, Marie, we have to talk about this. 

[00:30:47] Marie Vakakis: But you know, all jokes aside, it’s happening for people and it, it speaks to those same needs not being met and the turning away from, and so. Yeah, if people need the support, if something’s missing, get some support, get some help.

[00:30:58] Marie Vakakis: Reach out to people [00:31:00] and we can help you work your way through it.

[00:31:06] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter. We all shared tools, tips, and insight. There’s a link in the show notes, got a question you want answered, ship me an email or a dm.

[00:31:26] Marie Vakakis: I’d love to hear from you and if you enjoy the show, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review. It helps other people find the podcast.