[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this complex life. In this episode, I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Dr. Jodi Richardson on her podcast. Well, hello, anxiety. Uh, positive media podcast. We do have into a topic that resonates with so many people. 

And it’s something I’ve spoken about a few times before on the, this complex life podcast couples therapy Jodi and I explored why relationship struggles can feel incredibly anxiety inducing and how couples therapy can offer the tools needed to navigate these challenges from understanding when’s the right time for couples therapy to addressing some common misconceptions. 

We unpacked a lot of stuff, whether you’re curious about how couples therapy works or wondering how to approach your partner about it. This episode is full of practical insights to support happier, healthier relationships. This podcast was originally published on the Well, Hello anxiety podcast with Dr. 

Jodi Richardson. And I recommend her podcast to a lot of folks out there. It’s got some really great things and I’ve been on there a few times talking about different things related to anxiety. Hope you enjoy this episode where. The roles have shifted a bit and I’m in the interviewee chair. I’m being interviewed. It’s a really good one. Have you enjoy? Hello, I’m Dr. Jodie Richardson, and you’re listening to Well, Hello Anxiety, a podcast where we end the struggle with anxiety and build our toolkit of practical skills to thrive. Hello, welcome back to the podcast. Well, hello, anxiety. I am your host, Dr. Jodie Richardson. I am an anxiety. Mental health, wellbeing, and, uh, stress management speaker and author.

And of course the host here at Well, Hello Anxiety, which is proudly brought to you by Positive Media. It is such a pleasure to have your company. Thank you for the beautiful messages I’ve been getting and for the wonderful reviews. It’s such a joy to read those and to know that these episodes are really making a genuine difference for you and, um, and that you’re sharing them with others, so it’s.

Yeah, never take your time and your, um, attention for granted. So thank you for joining me and I’m really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you today because I’ve invited back a guest to join us today to have a conversation about something that you may have considered, you may have experienced, you may need, uh, you may be very anxious about and that you will I hope, appreciate learning a lot more about whether that helps you or whether or not that helps somebody that you know and care for.

The wonderful Marie Vakakis, who is a therapist as well as a mental health and relationship educator. And today we are talking about couples therapy. And I’m so interested to dive into this with. Marie, because I can’t think of much more that would be deeply anxiety provoking than having and experiencing troubles in your relationship, wondering whether or not to seek extra help, worrying about If you do seek that help, what that might uncover and, and what kind of path that might set you down and whether that’s a path that you’re quite ready to go along.

Um, when’s the right time for couples therapy? Is it just in an emergency or is it something that, you know, is really important to kind of get into earlier before, uh, things start going really pear shaped in a, in a relationship? And who is it for? And at what stage and at what age? And so many questions.

Or also a lot of fears around couple’s therapy that we’re really going to lay to rest today. So Marie, it’s just so lovely to have you back. Thank you for joining me for this. It’s a really, really important conversation to have, isn’t it? It is. And I’m, I’m surprised by how [00:04:00] many people don’t want to talk about it.

Yes. I can understand that. I, I really can because, and I, I did listen to an episode that you recorded on your podcast and it was such, it was such an interesting podcast episode. So I really encourage listeners, Marie. has a podcast called This Complex Life. And so I do encourage you to, after you’ve listened to us here, jump over into Marie’s podcast and, and uh, subscribe and follow because she really does have some really powerful conversations.

And this is just one of them where you were talking with Belinda Gibson about couples therapy. And I remember that one of the things that you talked about was this idea that in a relationship, things are really private, aren’t they? And so the idea of Going to talk to somebody and kind of, you know, I’m using air quotes, air the dirty laundry, so to speak, as my parents would have said, was just a no no for my parents generation.

You just did not talk with anybody about, you know, you just kind of got on with it or had in home kind of conversations. It’s, gosh, it can be, it can be a relationship saver, mental health savior. What, what is it that you think Are some of the things that stand in the way of people, um, actually before I ask that, could you tell us about couples therapy and what people can expect and what it means to attend couples therapy before we kind of talk about what stands in the way of people going?

Yeah, absolutely. I think this is, it’s a great question. I keep reconceptualizing the value of couples therapy in my mind and sometimes I think it’s one of those things everybody should do. Like we don’t get taught about relationships. We role model maybe what our parents did or we try and do the opposite.

And that came up a lot in our conversation around parenting in particular. And then there are times where I think if we had community. If we talked about these things with trusted mentors, family members, confidants, we might not need to go to therapy. So I really struggle with this idea of, I’m a therapist and I love therapy and I think it can be really beneficial.

And we’ve also become very individualistic as a culture. So sometimes people skip all these steps. And go straight to therapy to, to solve maybe a problem or, you know, like find the bug in the kind of the software. And I don’t know if that’s necessarily great, but if you don’t have that community, if you don’t have those confidants, if you don’t have trusted relationships with other adults where you can share your struggles and not those things out.

In the absence of all of that, yeah, therapy is really, really helpful because we’ve got two brains and they’re always going to think different, have conflict and sometimes we don’t know how to navigate that, how to manage that. So it can be really helpful to have a third person there, sift through some of that and give you an idea of what patterns emerge in how you communicate and where you might be getting stuck.

I, I agree. And I, I think about What you said before, where you said, where do we learn about relationships and what’s role modeled for us? And, you know, I know with my own parents, if there are any ever, you know, relationship issues, and they’re still married, you know, and they’re in their nearly, oh goodness, I think dad’s turning 80 this year.

Um, But it was very much a no no to talk about it. And so I guess when I, I got married, although Peter and I were together for, um, some time before we were married, because I ended up having to, experiencing depression, and that’s not a good time to get married. It’s not a good time to do a lot of things, make a lot of big decisions.

So there was a bit of a pause there, but I had kind of embodied that idea of oh, if, if we’re, if we’re, You know, having a disagreement or we can’t, you know, um, get on the same page about something. We had a fight or something like that. I’d had this intrinsic kind of like, Oh, it’s, it’s, um, [00:08:00] it’s not okay to talk to somebody about that.

It’s not okay to share that with someone and, and I’ve grown and, you know, I’ll have a chat with, you know, Peter and I communicate brilliantly, but I’ve got good friends that I can, I can chat with and, and it makes such a difference because you can, it can help you to kind of see, you know, what’s going on.

perspective and look at it rather than whilst being sort of stuck in it. Can’t it? And I, I know what you said before is about having people around us and having community, but in the absence of that, or sometimes you do need a professional to, to really support you to be able to have a look at. a complex situation through a neutral pair of eyes and to, to learn more about yourself and, and how you operate and what you need to learn more about your partner, how they operate, how they think, what they need, and, and to be able to work together as a team to kind of arrive at a, a kind of a better place.

And so. It is. Why is it, why does it feel so taboo and, um, I noticed before that you even sort of whispered and you said, nobody wants to talk about it. I mean, it is, you know, it’s, it’s therapy in general, but couple’s therapy. Cause I mean, is it, is it that we could have, we sort of want everyone to think that our relationships are, are all roses or is it, it’s just not the norm, is it, to talk about these sorts of things in public?

Unless, um, as you were saying on your podcast, um, you know, you might be, you the type of person to sort of air all the challenges that you come across day in and day out on social media or something. But, otherwise we keep it pretty close to the chest. So, talk to us about some of the, kind of, maybe the misunderstandings about couples therapy and, um, you know, maybe what people could expect to kind of make it feel a little bit more comfortable to consider when, and we’ll talk later about when, when it might be important to dive in.

But, um, perhaps that’s where we could start. Yeah, I thought, I mean, I’d like to rewind back to what you said around talking to other people and it touched on what I was saying earlier. I think that’s also really key is how we do that. It shouldn’t be that you have another person outside the relationship that you’re sharing things to that your partner is not aware of.

So really actually starting with what do we share outside? I mean, How it feels like a betrayal if you’re sitting there moaning about your partner and it’s something that you haven’t actually said to them, Hey babe, it really bothers me when this happened. And you’re kind of gossiping about them behind their back.

That’s not going to be a really good recipe for a healthy relationship. So I think there’s a very different part of being able to go to a close friend and say, I’m really struggling. I don’t know how else to approach this. That’s very different. And that feels a bit more collaborative, but just always saying, Oh, he’s such an idiot or she’s such an idiot or they’ve done this or in particular, you know, point out these things and your partner have no idea.

I mean, that’s kind of embarrassing for them as well. So we want to kind of, there’s find this balance around. We praise our partner in public and we, you know, we bring those, um, more constructive or critical things. In, in a way to the conversation with them, so I, I, I’d get people really thinking about what is okay to share and what’s not okay to share and how you, how you do that mindfully.

I, I just want to say to you, thank you for raising that because that’s really important and that’s probably not often discussed in a, in a partnership, isn’t it? I mean, well, I mean, maybe those who’ve come to see, you know, to do that, but. But I, I think about, you know, the things like sometimes, sometimes we just want to vent, we just want to say, I’m so frustrated about what happened.

Um, and other times, but, but yeah, it is, it’s really important. And, and we all kind of, I think we probably intrinsically know where that boundary is, but, but do we, do we really know that boundary? Maybe some, maybe some partners, you know, don’t want to be talked about at all. And so ask the question, open the dialogue.

It’s so important. [00:12:00] A lot of people actually have very different understandings of what they Um, think they can talk to their friends about, and it’s a little bit gendered, but not always. Um, but I’ve known people that I’ve had conversations with through therapy or just through, um, you know, just bringing up these awkward conversations sometimes.

Um, and you know, sometimes female friends or maybe within sisters are really happy to talk about kind of really detailed things and anything from their, maybe their sex and intimacy, um, you know, really detailed stuff about their partner and their partner would be mortified. And women sometimes think, well, Well, yeah, that’s a given, don’t you know, we do that, but they don’t and vice versa, like imagine, you know, your partner’s talking about something that’s maybe deeply personal intimate with their friends and you’re like, that wasn’t okay to share.

So actually having a bit of an understanding of what is okay to share, what’s not okay to share, and even then it can be situation based. So Um, something maybe like, um, a miscarriage, someone might want comfort from their friends to talk about that. And someone else might not want to talk about it at all.

And it’s actually starting to have these conversations around what can we share? What’s mine to share? What’s yours? How do I respect that? And negotiating that bit by bit with different people, because again, two brains, very different ideas of what’s okay to share, what’s not okay to share. And it can go.

You can go really wrong and that person can feel like their trust has been betrayed completely by their partner who, I think it hurts more when it’s someone that you confide in and you’re vulnerable with. Thank you, Marie. And when it comes to couple’s therapy, I wonder if one of the things that, that you set straight for people, or one of the misconceptions about couple’s therapy is that somebody, is going to be backed while the other person isn’t, or one person is going to be sort of going along to couple’s therapy thinking, well, I am really kind of looking to get some kind of reinforcement or bring in the reinforcements.

And, and, um, And that perhaps a, a therapist might, um, be inclined to sort of share, you know, who’s right, who’s wrong. One person might feel supported, one person might, might feel quite the opposite. So, can you tell us about, what’s your role as a therapist? And what might the first, um, you would call them a consult?

What would you call it? Session? Session. And what might the first session look like when a brand new couple, uh, meeting you for the first time? Um, what could they expect in that first session? And if somebody sort of feels like they need to sort of rally the troops because they want to kind of reinforce to their partner that, you know, their point of view is the right, you know, right point of view and think that the therapist might sort of, Um, talk, talk us through kind of these, um, experiences and, and what a couple therapist and what a couple therapist’s role is.

So everyone, I mean, there’s just as much as there’s different modalities. We call the modalities in, in therapy like ACT, CBT, DBT, schema therapy. Like there’s just as many for couples therapy. So there is actually no one method that everybody uses. There is I’m family therapy trained, and then I’ve done additional extensive training in Gottman method couples therapy.

So I kind of fuse those together. And for me, I play a role of, I try to educate people from the start. So on the website, there are a lot of articles around couples therapy. It’s clearly listed into our sort of fee structure of what to expect. And I have a four session assessment process. So people come to me, we have about an hour and a half, sometimes longer.

And we talk about the relationship, the history, how they [00:16:00] met, what’s brought them to therapy. Why now? And I really start to form the assessment process. So it’s like I described to them. It’s like going to the doctor. Imagine going to the doctor and saying, my stomach hurts. And they’re like, Oh, yep. I know exactly how to fix that and give you an injection.

And off you go. And you’re like, But they didn’t look at my belly. They didn’t run any tests. They didn’t take my temperature. How do they know what’s wrong with me? How do they know that’s going to fix it? And I like to think of couples therapy a bit like that as well of, I’m not just going to from session one, start fixing things because I actually don’t know what’s going on.

So I try and get a really good understanding of the relationship history and then I share with them how I work and it’s different for everybody. So we talk about that. I don’t keep secrets that, um, part of my assessment process is, uh, session together, an online assessment, a session each individually, then we come back together.

And so I’m not going to betray one person’s trust by holding onto a secret like an affair, gambling debt, some sort of other breach of trust or privacy. So I really laid that down. And if someone does disclose something like that, and they’re not willing to share it with their partner, then we terminate the sessions.

And so there’s a lot of sort of, Laying out the expectation and taking a bit of, um, controls, not the right word, but really just making sure that both people feel at ease that when they come to me, they don’t have to worry about, you know, are they going to be criticized? Are they going to be attacked? I really set that up by saying things like, I’m going to occasionally interrupt you, or I want to actually see how things go at home so I can get an idea of, of what happens, uh, I let them actually have a reoccurring kind of conflict, um, not escalate really big, but we let them kind of do that.

Sometimes they wear pulse oximeters. So I get to see how their heart rate’s responding to that conflict. And then we map out the pattern where they get stuck. When one person does this, what does the other person do? So I kind of do that big assessment to have an online component, which is a few hundred questions through the Gottman Connect website.

I meet with each person individually, and then we come together and I share some of my observations, some of the results of all the data I’ve collected, what they thought, any comments that they made throughout that process. And then we start to sort of prioritize where are the areas that they want to work on first.

And so I let them know that those first few sessions. It’s unlikely anything will get better. Hope might, they might start feeling hopeful, but we’re not going to actually start fixing anything just yet. And so a lot of it is, is normalizing the process, letting them know how I work and asking them if they’ve got any questions, what they need and trying to build a bit of connection rapport with each person.

If they’re coming to me to repair, uh, an affair, then it’s a slightly different process. We’re still looking at the relationship as a whole, but yes, one person, one partner, the one who had the affair. There’s, there’s a little bit more. It’s not taking sides, but they have to atone. There is a different process that we, we do for, for that.

And it’s got its own sort of treatment and structure, I guess. Oh goodness. Four sessions. And the analogy that you made with the, the doctor’s appointment, it makes perfect sense. So, a session together as a couple, completing the online questionnaire individually, and also an individual session each, that must give you a really deep insight into kind of What it is that you’re all working with and towards.

And that connection is so important, isn’t it? Between them getting to know you and trust you. And for you to have that understanding, like you say. Because, you know, they’re two brains. I mean, two brains. It says it all, really. Uh, but this idea that, um, that there’s a lot that you need to know. There’s a lot that you need to understand about them as individuals and as a [00:20:00] partnership.

To then do the work that is needed to support them on the goal, with the goals that they’ve got to repair the relationship or to, um, to work on whatever it is that they’ve come to see for. I think it might. I think it’s important for relaxed listeners to know that you kind of ease into it, don’t you?

It’s not sort of diving right into, you know, problem solving and, and, uh, that’s, that sort of comes and, and the understanding, but the understanding is really important first. And so that would probably build that comfortability and bring the defenses maybe down a little bit, just going through that process and even answering some of those questions I can imagine would get people starting to sort of think about how they operate.

Right. So then. You’re obviously learned how they operate and who they are and what they need and what some of the challenges are But I imagine even by the time you sort of have been through that process that they’ve got a more Understanding of themselves as well. Is that a reasonable conclusion? I would hope so I think it is really tricky and people’s expectations of what we do and how we can achieve things in the time is actually really difficult.

Um, it’s something really difficult to bridge because mental health isn’t spoken about very much. And historically it’s been underfunded comparison in comparison to physical health. And sometimes people, you know, have people come like, Oh, we tried couples therapy. I’m like, well, how did it go? They’re like, Oh, we had one session and nothing changed.

Yeah, of course not. Like imagine being really, really unfit. So the equivalent of maybe a high couple. And then thinking, I went to one, PT session and I can’t run a marathon like it didn’t work, you know, the, the more unfit you are, the harder that goal is going to be to achieve. So the more distress in the relationship, the more conflict, the more ruptures, the more things that have been unprocessed, you know, the longer that hurts been going on, the less friendliness there is a less fondness, less admiration, the more, you know, you’re arguing and.

The less time you spend together, of course, it’s not going to get fixed really quickly. It’s impossible. And so I think some people can come when things are really, really, really hard and they’re so desperate. And we have, you know, an assessment session and they’re like, it didn’t work. And so to try and combat that we offer, you know, I offer marathon sessions so people can come for two or three days straight and we can really get into it.

And I prefer longer sessions. But we also have to be realistic of how much we can achieve. Like, if you’ve been fighting for seven years, I can’t undo that in just an hour or two. We know you’re good. You’re not that good. I can bring some awareness to it. But changing habits, changing your physiology when you get stressed and aroused, and you know, you’ve spoken about that in countless episodes around the impact of anxiety and feeling flooded or flipping your lead.

Like, that takes a lot of time to recognize, to retrain your body’s responses, to try and change your internal dialogue, and to then try and do it differently with your partner who’s maybe also trying to do all of that stuff for themselves. Like, it’s not that, it’s not that easy. and I have hope that we can make a lot of progress.

So it’s trying to find this right balance of having some realistic expectations, but not being completely hopeless about the situation. Very much so. And, and it’s like, it’s, you know, these physical analogies, uh, are really powerful. And it’s, it’s the same when somebody, is, is really unwell. Like, like you were saying about the fitness, the illness, the time at the doctor’s, or if somebody’s you know, put on a lot of weight over a long period of time.

It takes a long time. When, when things have taken a long time to build You know, and I certainly don’t know if there’s any research around kind of, um, and you might be able to share with us in, in terms of kind of what, you know, how many sessions or over what period of time can really make a meaningful difference [00:24:00] for people.

But it’s really important to know this because expectations are really important. And a conversation like this will help people with their expectations, but also it’s really important you’re at couples therapy because your relationship is, you know, and, and, Now, I guess people arrive at different conclusions through the therapy process, but it’s really important and anything is, you’re investing time and money and energy and emotion and thinking and, uh, effort into, it, it’s going to take time and it, a relationship is something if you are going to therapy, it’s really meaningful to you, um, and so recognizing that that’s, that’s part of the process, um, I think is really, really helpful for people.

And I’m wondering. Um, what would be some of the reasons that people would come to couple’s therapy? So you know, I understand that, you know, if I injured my Achilles, I went to see the osteo. You know, now my osteo kind of growled at me a little bit because he was like, well, I thought we talked about you coming in a little bit more regularly so that we can, you know, stay on top of things and, and I’m like, yes, yes, time, money and all that kind of stuff.

And so, you know, it’s very natural for us to sort of, right. Have the crisis, like you said before, or, you know, the, the, the huge challenge, and then it’s like, okay, help is needed. I know that couple therapy is something that can make an enormous difference, even if in a very happy relationship, but you don’t even have to have problems, you know, per se, but what, what would.

What would you say to the, to listeners about some of the reasons that they might consider couples therapy could be, um, really, really helpful for them? Uh, just so, you know, we, we hope that people listening won’t, won’t wait until, um, you know, things are in the red, so to speak, before kind of reaching out for help because, um, help’s available a lot sooner, um, on that really rocky road.

Yeah. So there are a number of trends that I noticed that people come to couples therapy for. Probably the biggest, which is almost like a catch all is, So when I hear someone saying, we just don’t communicate well, I see that as they’re stuck, maybe they don’t feel heard or they can see that their partner doesn’t quite feel heard and they don’t know what to do differently.

So communication feels like a big catch all. It doesn’t necessarily mean conflict for some people. Some people are very conflict avoidant, but it can then include conflict. So. Communication is one. Conflict is the other. The fighting too much, arguing, and then that can either escalate or lead to withdrawal.

So maybe they’re sleeping in different rooms or one person is kind of saying, I’ve had enough of this. I just can’t do it anymore. Constant bickering and fighting and conflict. Uh, sex life is one. So sex and intimacy, um, usually not enough. I’ve haven’t had anyone come and say they’re having too much, um, but a mismatch, a mismatch of, of desire or, Frequency or something there.

So that tends to be a big one as well. And more recently, I’m not sure if it’s post lockdown or just what I’m seeing come through my office, but adjusting to parenthood. So working with a lot of couples who had quite an egalitarian relationship prior to parenthood, um, both working, both having careers, dreams, hopes, aspirations, and then the adjustments of parenting, especially for the primary parent, often being the mom.

Finding that difficult, finding a lot of difficulty in that journey to parenthood, um, and just the change in their lifestyle, in their routine, in their roles. And so that’s been a really common one as well lately. And then there are some things, um, I’ve had a few, you know, people come in for trying to repair a relationship post an affair, trying to deal with grief and loss.

So if there’s sort of a death or an illness in the family, I’ve had some families come with, um, you know, their, their carers of a child with, with disabilities. So trying to look at how to navigate those additional [00:28:00] challenges and a range of other sort of lifestyle milestones or a big significant event.

So they’re sort of kind of the trend. And then there’s just as much variation in individual therapy. Um, people come to couples therapy for as well. Do most people wait until things are really bad to come and see you? Do you feel as though that most people who see you would have benefited from coming sooner or, or perhaps things might not have escalated to the point that they have done had, had they couple therapy kind of like.

As a, as an option to consider for help along kind of a little bit earlier in the, in the journey they’re on. I think that’s a tricky one. I think everyone could have benefited from coming earlier because some of the things we talk about could be preventative. So even if there’s no high conflict and even if you think your communication is really well, sometimes the types of conversations we have are very different.

So maybe the topics are things that people haven’t considered and sometimes they haven’t considered those themes for themselves. So something like finances comes up a lot. And it’s not just about. Money in, money out or a spreadsheet, sometimes it’s understanding your money story, what money means to you, what it was like growing up in your family, what you, whether you had it, whether you didn’t have it, whether you like to save it or spend it or what it signifies.

Sometimes people haven’t even thought about what that means for themselves, so it’s really hard to communicate that to a partner. So having conversations around. Things like that can be really helpful. So some yes, if they came earlier would be amazing and some come really at breaking point And and that’s okay, too We’ll do what we can but we have to be realistic and I think that sometimes it can be so much hurt there that some people Can’t give what they their partner might need because they’re so hurt.

And so it’s this little You know, a bit of a tug of war almost of like, well, I’m not going to give it until they give it first and give it by giving air quotes. It could be compassion or empathy or some, you know, some grace or do something kind. And it’s like, well, I’m not going to do it first because they’re not going to do it first or I’m not going to make the move because they rejected me last time.

And so. Sometimes those patterns can be so ingrained that they can be difficult to shift. And we see moments of change in the session, but it’s not the same for everybody. And I am noticing a trend of some people coming a lot earlier in the relationships where they’re coming as, uh, you know, we want to kind of tweak some things or improve things rather than we’re in a lot of distress.

And that’s really great to see. And I really love that. The reality is a lot of our insurance doesn’t cover it. Our Medicare system here doesn’t cover it. It can be quite financially expensive to get someone who’s really qualified and know that it could take 15 or 20 sessions. So that’s quite a big expense for people.

It is cheaper than a divorce or a separation, but when you’re not doing You know, you’re fighting a lot or you’re, you know, under pressure. Finances can be one of those topics that’s putting you under pressure. So it actually is a really tricky thing to unpack for people. Yeah, it is, isn’t it? And what a, what a catch 22 if finances are a challenge and couples therapy would make a really big difference.

And what you said before about people understanding themselves and knowing what they need and then knowing how to communicate it has really struck a chord with me because I, I think about Like, Peter and I have, you know, we’ve been together 22, we’ve been married 22 years together, um, 31 actually. And gosh, we’ve grown as individuals and as a couple in that time and our communication style has changed.

And because of me with my, like a very, uh, anxious brain, uh, [00:32:00] early in the relationship and then certain things, certain things will be detected as threat by my brain that I never used to understand about myself. And so as I learned more about myself and understood, and obviously, you know, I have the position of this being my, my, my work and my profession, and obviously something that’s personally very important to me.

But even, even just as I started to understand what might set my alarm off in my brain and that I react. You know, I will react in that moment in ways that, that are hard to understand for a partner. And I’ll give you, I’ll give you an example. Um, we used to have, uh, a kitchen, uh, we’ve, we’ve got an island bench now.

And so you can move in any direction through it, through it and around the kitchen. But we used to have a U shaped kitchen and like my primitive amygdala detect would detect threat if, if. A couple of people were coming and chatting to me, and I was on the other side of them. It was like I was trapped, like a, like a trapped animal, you know, if you can sort of picture that.

I’m on one side, and, uh, you know, so sometimes I’d find if I was in a space where, you know, a visitor or Pete or someone, it would just be detected as a threat by my brain, and I would run away. not necessarily react or respond in a way that would be typical of me because I didn’t understand that about myself.

And whilst now I understand the way my brain works, how it feels in my body, how it changes the way I, I am in the company of others. And I can either avoid putting myself in situations that feel that way, or now that I’m in When I do find myself in a, in, in a position like that, I, I understand what I need to do to sort of manage my nervous system, but also can come back and say, Oh, I know I snapped a bit snappy in the way I was speaking before, um, this is what I was, this is what was happening for me.

And so that alone, just, just being able to recognize like as a person with, with anxiety, what triggers the anxiety. And, recognize, and even though you might not be able to get it right all the time in, in the moment, kind of, you know, change the circumstances, at least to be able to sort of come back and say, hey, I know I was really snappy before, this is what was actually going on for me.

You know, that’s just a window into me that Pete never used to have that’s made a real big difference and, and that has opened the door for more conversations because it’s just, you’re just a bit calmer and you’re just, you’re coming from a place of, I need you to understand me and that opens the door for conversations to sort of go back and forth in that way and so, you know, thankfully we’ve been able to kind of arrive at this place ourselves and we haven’t had any sort of major significant kind of challenges that have, um, would, would have would see us kind of looking to couples therapy, but, you know, what, what you, what you said before, the reasons about, I mean, communication and conflict and bickering and fighting, and I’m sure that feels like it goes round and round in circles, um, sex and intimacy and adjusting to parenthood, I mean, goodness, you know, most people probably think, oh, we’ve just got to work it out ourselves, but they don’t, do they?

You, you, you can help with so So many aspects of what people are going through when it’s big change. And, um, and often without, things will stay as they are, or, or deteriorate and become really much more painful and difficult, wouldn’t they? They would, and I’ll use your example. If you handle that in a different way where every time he came up to you, You said, you’re always in my space.

You can just never leave me alone. Get out of the kitchen and you cracked it. He would have no idea. Or you could say something like, you know, you’re always sussicating me. That’s very different to saying. I [00:36:00] feel trapped or overwhelmed when you come really close to me in the kitchen and I need some space.

So even how we handle it, because imagine having, you know, you’re cooking dinner, breakfast, you know, you’re in there a handful of times a day. If that kept happening, that critical piece, that’s going to then filter out into other parts. So without the context. Even with the context, you know, if, if that person’s feeling like you just keep jabbing me, you keep criticizing me, they can’t just dust that off when they walk out of the kitchen and come back to you later and be like, Oh, Hey babe, you want a cup of tea?

Like, so it’s, we’re trying to find this balance of sometimes it’s not even the big thing. Like people like, we’re fighting. We don’t even know why we’re fighting anymore. And it’s not about unloading the dishwasher, sometimes it’s about what it represents, but it’s also how that conversation happens, that you’re coming at it with what the other person is doing wrong instead of how you feel and what you need.

And we can, we can do better on both sides. We can ask for what we need better. We can share how we feel. So I feel overwhelmed when you come and talk to me about your day while I’m cooking dinner. I need you to give me some space so I can complete these tasks. But you know, that’s very different, but we can also listen better.

So if someone’s saying just everyone get out of the, get out of the way, I’m feeling. You’re in my space. They might say, Oh, it looks like you’re overwhelmed right now, or you’re feeling suffocated and leave instead of them saying, well, nothing I do is ever good enough for you. I’m just trying to help with dinner.

Oh, you’re always telling me what I’m getting wrong. Well, I just want to talk to you about my day. Like they might then fire back with all the things that they’re annoyed about. And before you know it, you’re both flooded. You’ve both flipped your lid, dinner’s burned, you’ve stepped on the dog’s tail, something else has happened and it’s like, what the hell, where did we, how did it get here?

So they’re really hard patterns to break without someone kind of witnessing that and slowing it down and saying what happened to you then, what happened then, where, what was activated or triggered for you, what did you need in that moment? And sometimes unpacking that, that cycle or that pattern, that’s what’s then transferable to other parts of the relationship.

So it is, it is a, it’s a tricky one, but it’s sometimes never about the thing it’s about. Um, and, and what am I making this mean? How am I interpreting this? Because we often, we look at things through our lens, don’t we? And so, you know, just, just the other day, even in, even in a friendship situation, I noticed a shift in energy.

It was so funny because the next day I saw a meme about people with anxiety and what happens when they notice a shift in energy of a friend and how you sort of can, it’s all, what did I do wrong? In that moment, I was able to go, Oh, I noticed, and I think this person is feeling a little Like, I noticed my immediate response was like a physiological response of a little bit of anxiety.

And then I’m like, actually, this is not about me. I think this person is actually feeling quite stressed. And I think what this person needs from me in this moment, and this was, this was just, You know, I didn’t say just a friend, um, this was a friendship, but, you know, it translates, doesn’t it? That if we can, if we can just recognize something and if we understand more about, I mean, I was making a guess, but I was making a guess that it wasn’t anything I’d done.

It was, it was that person’s perspective and that helped to sort of settle me and then for me to be able to think, I wonder what they need, what can I do here? And in, in a relationship, it’s so easy, isn’t it? To just get so reactive and what you said before, I want to really reinforce it. It’s so important.

And we can. understand ourselves and communicate better, but we can also listen better and maybe be more aware of what our partner needs and, and maybe what they’re trying to communicate even though then they might not be doing a great job of it. So we might be, you know, Less, less, um, reactive and maybe more open to asking that next question, Hey, what’s going on for you right now?

And so in having someone like you and going along to [00:40:00] therapy, I can, the value is just undeniable in that having that neutral third person to kind of, like you said earlier, that there might be a little bit of conflict. Um, And that you might interrupt, and you might sort of pause and say, right, what’s actually happening in that?

And sometimes I imagine a small shift can, can make a big difference. And I wonder if you’ve got any examples that you might share where, where you could kind of illustrate this idea that just a, A little bit of understanding, and obviously, you know, it’s all very confidential, the work you do, but even just a made up example of where something small, in terms of each person in the partnership understanding exactly what’s happening for the one that gets reactive, can make quite a significant difference, uh, in the relationship.

Is there anything coming to mind, or have I, have I, um, stumped you? And it’s something I’m pretty sure we spoke about for one of the episodes with parents, but. We’ll paint the picture for couples, you know, this happens on my couch and in couches all around the world. I’m sure You’re sitting on the couch Maybe you’re wanting to you know, you watch TV You’re flicking through the shows you pick something and you turn around your partners on their phone or on the iPad and it’s like Get off your phone.

I’m just finishing something. You’re always on your phone. No, I’m not. You’re always on your phone. I’m just finishing something for work. Well, how do you know I’m not finishing something for work? Oh, for goodness sakes. Fine. I’ll put my phone down. What is it? What do you want to show me? It doesn’t matter anymore.

The moment’s passed. And it could be that that person was making a bid for connection. They wanted their partner to connect with them and they felt hurt, rejected, left out. And so they came in with criticism. You then don’t want to spend time with someone who’s just told you off when you were maybe Decompressing from your day.

Maybe you had or even it was just a mindless habit You know, it was interpreted in a way that was not what you intended and you’re probably sitting there thinking I don’t know what else they want from me. I’m here. I’m watching this show I don’t even like this show, but I’m doing it for them and I was just kind of scrolling through my phone big deal And so to be able to break that down and say, how would it have sounded if your partner said, babe, I’ve missed you today.

I want to spend some time together without distractions. Could we watch some TV? And if you didn’t want to watch TV, then you could say, actually, I really, I want to spend time with you too. I don’t really like that show. Could we do X instead? And then it starts to become a conversation. If that person was really overwhelmed saying something like, yeah, I’d actually, I’d love to do that.

Can I have 15, 20 minutes to decompress? And then I’m all yours. So that changes it to something collaborative rather than critical. And so being able to talk about what you, how you feel and what you need without it being an attack on the other person. Cause when you say it is, you never pay attention to me.

You’re always on your phone, just like with parents and Tina. They’re going to try and find all the times where. It’s not true, or that you did it to them, or they’re going to throw in, well, I don’t know what your problem is. You said you would do X, Y, Z for dinner and you didn’t, and you forgot to pick up the stuff from the post office that I asked you to.

So what? It’s only about what I get wrong. How about what you got wrong? And then it becomes a fight. And so it goes completely out of proportion. Yes, what a great example. And I’m sure anyone listening can relate to that. I mean, goodness, I’m just thinking of a couple of nights ago and, and it is, it’s, and it, and it’s a beautiful example of how things can really escalate from, from a scenario that we all find ourselves in with just approaching it from a different perspective.

This idea that, hey, I’d really like to spend some time without distractions. And then, you know, is, [00:44:00] can we do that now? Or do you want to come back in 15 minutes or, you know, and, and, and also when it comes to the phone too, that, you know, Sometimes it is really important and, you know, my mother in law has dementia and Pete might be, um, making an appointment online for, you know, for a doctor’s appointment or something.

Or, or he could literally just be on what he calls the boards, which is all the chit chat about the AFL, I mean the NFL, um, American Gridiron. And um, and either way, that’s okay, just a It doesn’t really matter what they’re doing. It’s, it’s about what you’re hoping for in that moment, isn’t it? And it’s about what you can communicate and how you communicate that, you know, it’s not just about get off your phone.

It’s about actually, it’s about the connection. It’s about spending time together. It’s about being distraction free and, and being able to relax and unwind. It’s such a good example. And then it’s how you get your needs met. So that’s something very personal. Um, and you think of like a really cute puppy or a kitten.

They don’t care what you’re doing. They just go sit on your lap and they make you, they put their hand, their head under your hand and they make you pat them. So some people are really good at coming in and being like, snuzzling up to their partner and being like, Hey. How you going? I’m here now. And they, that bid for connection is, is caught well.

And other people sit on the other end of the couch, silently brewing away angry and frustrated because they really want their partner to come and hug them, or their behavior is saying leave me alone. So, you know, it’s like the, the puppy that’s hiding under the couch, you you don’t want to pat it, it’s, it’s hidden from you.

So sometimes then how we go about getting our needs met, we do the exact opposite thing of what we need. So some people have some really unhelpful ways of trying to get noticed or feel connection that https: otter. ai

And that can, that can also be learned, can’t it? Like if a, if a parent kind of like gets in the car and drives away in a half, if something’s happened, even though they probably really want the partner to call or say, don’t go or to, you know, like, I mean, that’s probably a quite extreme example, but it happens.

Yeah. Yeah. And then a child might, might, that might be behavior that is repeated because that was what was observed. Yeah. So it could be, I had to. escalate things to get noticed. Cause it was, it was only when mum stormed out saying, I can’t deal with this anymore. I’m leaving that dad really kind of picked up his game or it wasn’t until dad said, I’ve had enough of this, that mum would stop doing X, Y, Z.

So sometimes they’ve, they’ve observed that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Some of our listeners will no doubt be thinking, Hey, I think couple therapy be really beneficial for us in our relationship. And I’m thinking, well, the next thing is broaching it with the partner. What advice do you have? You don’t want to set them up to fail.

So if you want to talk to your partner about couples therapy, it’s very different saying you want to go to couples therapy and they’re going to be like, probably not. That’s very different to saying, Hey babe, or you know, whatever fun thing you call them. I’m finding that I’m really struggling to talk to you about certain things, or I’m really worried about our intimacy or how we communicate.

And I would find it really helpful if we could go to couples therapy together. Would you come with me? So phrasing it in a way that’s around how they can support you rather than saying I think we should go to couples therapy because I’ve had enough of this or You know being very tentative like oh, do you maybe think we should try this?

Because they’re not sure if that’s what you want them to say And if you say yes, do you then think that they then think that you’ve got problem like it’s being really calm and clear I think that we should try I would like to do this, this is how we could do it. Do you want me to find someone, do you want me to look for [00:48:00] someone together?

Or you can have a really firm boundary and say, I’m really struggling with this. And what we’re doing is not working. So I have a few ideas. We could do a marathon session, we could do some regular couples therapy. There’s, there’s ways to kind of approach it that feel gentle, but clear and direct without giving ultimatums, without being critical and without sort of setting your partner up to fail without them really knowing.

What you mean by it? Because imagine if you said, Hey, do you want to go to cup of separate? They’re like, no, not really. If the meaning you make from that is they don’t care about you or they They don’t want to work on things that can be devastating When they might think they might not have given it a thought that might think we can’t afford it Or I don’t want to talk to someone about my problems or maybe they don’t think things are that that bad, or they don’t realize just how unhappy you are.

So it’s trying to be as clear, which I guess if you had all of those skills, you might not need couples there, but it is a bit of a difficult one, but maybe you’re rehearsing it, taking down some notes, even using, you know, an episode like this as food for thought saying, I heard this episode and it made me realize, Oh, it’s probably not as scary as I thought.

Would you be willing to give it a go with me? Can we give it a few sessions? And then. Myth bust, you know, if they say it’s expensive. Look, I know it’s expensive. I think it could be worth it for us or This is how I imagine budgeting for this is what we can go without or what I’m prepared to go with that So you can say it really gently But try not to set them up to fail.

Yes, and you said before, not an ultimatum. We’re going to, you have to come to couples therapy with me or else it’s not going to land well either. And, um, yeah, you’ve really, you really have opened the door. I know you will have opened the door to conversations in relationships. You know, people who have listened into this conversation that we’re having to, you know, obviously raise awareness of, of kind of, you know, How everyone, you know, how everyone operates, um, but also, you know, where couple therapy could be really powerful and, and really make a, a meaningful difference and, and I, you did mention before about DIY resources.

Do you have anything on your website that I could point, that we could point listeners to that might be useful or, uh, something that you could suggest? Yeah, I mean, I have a few YouTube videos and I have some blog posts on the Therapy Hub website. But in terms of my favorite resources, I think the, the Gottman Institute has some really great things.

So there’s a few books there that I love. My current favorite is the Eight Dates book. And this one’s really good if you’re not in a lot of conflict, if you’re just kind of looking to like, try something new. It’s got eight different themes and each chapter, each chapter of the book gets you, you read it.

Together. Like you don’t have to sit there and like storytelling, but you each read that chapter. Then you have a date and you talk about, they give you questions, just that chapter. So it’s really easy to digest. I think, um, I listened to it as an audio book. It’s maybe 25, 30 minutes a chapter. And then it gives you, then it’s like a downloadable PDF, or if you’ve got the hard copy book, there’s questions.

And that helps you open up some of these different conversations. It talks about, um, intimacy, finances, you know, goals and values and dreams and hopes and conflict. And it gives you some, some, I guess, words to, to have different conversations. So that one’s, I really liked that book. There’s also, I know Esther Perel has an online course on sex and intimacy.

I think she calls it erotic desire or desire. There’s, uh, she’s also had a course on conflict. So there are a few things that you can do. And even if you do them on your own, that’s still really helpful for the relationship. So if you read one of these books or if you listen to it, you can then bring that back into the relationship, tell your partner saying, Hey, this is what I learned.

I didn’t realize that this was my pattern or this is something I feel [00:52:00] like we struggled with. What do you think? So it’s very much when you’re approaching it like that, it has to be about what you’ve noticed about yourself, not what your partner’s doing wrong. Good, very, very good advice. It is really important.

And, and as a final word, you can go to couple’s therapy alone, can’t you? If your, if your partner won’t come with you. Yeah, it wouldn’t be, um, traditionally couples therapy, like I wouldn’t do that full assessment, but you can go to therapy and find a therapist who works relationally and talk about the, the relationship.

So you don’t have to just go to therapy when there’s a mental illness or mental health problems. You can go to therapy. And again, you might, Choose different therapists based on their experience, but to talk about relationships to talk about Communication about boundaries about what’s getting activated for you how you respond.

What’s you know, you’re struggling with you can definitely get a lot out of it It’s it’s like with physical healthy if you have an idea of what you want to get out of it Then you choose your trainer appropriately. So if you just want to get fit How do you know who to choose? But if you say, I want to get better at swimming, you might choose a swimming coach.

You’re not going to go to the gym or to a Pilates studio if you want to just improve your swimming. You need to get in the pool. So there are some ways to kind of figure out what do you actually want from therapy and you find the therapist that has those skill sets. So. You definitely can do work on your relationship, but choose a therapist that has skills in in relationships who maybe is trained in couples therapy or family therapy or who has experience working with those dynamics and those relationships.

Otherwise, you might be going to someone who’s very focused on a mood disorder or, um, something else. And they’re like, Oh, The skill set doesn’t quite stretch out into that. Yes. Yeah. Well said. And, and of course, our, all of our listeners have been introduced to you and your incredible work and you own the Therapy Hub.

And so how can listeners get in contact with you and follow you online because you share great resources and you do have your own podcast called This Complex Life and your blog writing. And of course you, um, work clinically. How can people connect with you, Marie? Yeah. So for any sort of therapy based stuff, everything goes through the therapy hub.

So there’s myself and a team there and I do, I have a small case. So there, and I do the marathon sessions, which you can read all about there. And then for sort of workshops and trainings in the podcast, that’s all under my name. So I go into workplaces, into schools, into organizations, uh, online events around relationships, mental health, because that’s sort of where my Passion is combining the two, so being a trainer and facilitator and educating people and doing some of that preventative work, while also looking at mental health, but anything I do sort of in the therapy space, I’m always thinking about the people around that person, because our mental health impacts our, Relationships, our relationships impact our mental health.

Both of those things have an impact on our physical health. Like, it’s, it’s so linked. And I like to kind of focus on that intersection of those things rather than complete sort of deficit mental illness. Yes. It’s sort of not where I, I tend to do the most work. So people can find me on the Therapy Hub website.

I’m or marivakakis. com. au. I put a lot of stuff on Instagram and I hang out a lot on LinkedIn as well. Oh, awesome. And the spelling is M A R I E V A K A K I S. So, um, you can get the, get that right into Google and I’ll put that in the show notes as well. Marie, thank you. Thank you so much. It’s, uh, gosh, you know, so much.

You’re exactly right what you just said about our mental health, our relationships and our physical health. You know, they’re, they’re not separate entities. Everything’s influenced by everything else. And you know, we, we, on this podcast, it’s just such a gift to be able to [00:56:00] have a conversation like this and to, you know, my hope is that some people listening will say to themselves, Hey, you know, This wasn’t something I, you know, sometimes when you’re in the weeds, it’s hard to sort of see what the options are and hopefully, you know, consider this as a, as an option that might make a really meaningful difference, um, in your relationship and, and that, that affects everything else, mental health, physical health, um, joy and fulfillment and, um, life satisfaction, happiness, wellbeing, all of that.

So, um, very, very important conversation. I thank you so much for your time today, Marie. Thanks for having me. It’s always fun to talk with you. Oh goodness, I love chatting with you too. And listeners, thank you. Thank you again. Thank you for your time. And yeah, really, really important conversation, this one with Marie.

So check out her website, Therapy Hub, and her website marievacarcas. com. au. I’ll put those links in the show notes. And uh, yeah, share this one around, share this one around. There might be some people, you know, who would really benefit from listening to this conversation as well. Thank you again for your time and I will see you next week.

Okay. Bye.

Thank you so much for joining me for this week’s episode. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and leave a review. To keep the conversation going. I’d love you to join me over on Instagram. You’ll find me at drjodyrichardson. Also, if you’d like a copy of my free five day mini email course, calm your anxious brain, then jump over to my website, drjodyrichardson.

com and you can sign up down the bottom there. I’ve really enjoyed having your company. Thanks so much. See you next time.