Marie Vakakis: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this complex Life. Joining me today I have Dr. Jodi Richardson. Hello, Jodi.

Jodi: To be back with you.

Marie Vakakis: So we’ve had a number of chats between our two podcasts on me popping up on well, hello, anxiety, and Jodi being a frequent guest on this complex life. And today we wanna talk about stress and anxiety and why maybe things just feel so hard right now.

Jodi: Yeah.

Marie Vakakis: We talk a lot between us, um, between the two podcasts around stress and fatigue and anxiety, and I think one of the things I’m curious to hear your insights on is how do you help people understand the difference between maybe stress and overwhelm and anxiety as a feeling verse, an anxiety, mental health concern, mental illness diagnosis.

Jodi: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s really good because, and, and I think the language around it can sometimes be, [00:01:00] uh, yeah, the language you that we use is really important. And I think sometimes people say, uh, you know, I’m feeling, feeling really anxious. Whereas they’re just having a, a normal stress response to a. You know, for, for a very good reason.

And so I love that you’ve asked this question. So the way that I like to explain it, look, you know, essentially we feel stressed when we, the demands that are on us, um, we don’t have, we don’t feel like we have the resources to meet the demands that life is placing on us. And that’s really true for a lot of people a lot of the time because life does ask a lot of us, doesn’t it?

We were just chatting, weren’t we about? You know, coming through injuries and things and just, um, you know, there, there are a lot of moving parts day to day. And so if we think about what are the resources that we’ve got to meet the challenges that we are facing and, um, they can be internal resources, they can be kind of drawing on whether or not we need persistence or we need to carve out more time, set more boundaries, um.

You know, in terms of like the things that we have control over. [00:02:00] Um, and sometimes it can be about reaching out and getting some more help, maybe asking for more help, um, so that we can sort of draw on the people around us. So, um, stress is something that we are really equipped to cope with. We are biologically very well equipped to cope with it when it’s.

Acute, which means it’s, it sort of rises in response to something that’s happening. Like, for example, I’ve got a teenager today sitting an exam. A lot of the teenagers will feel really stressed, possibly anxious, which I can talk about in a second. Um, because I might feel like there’s so much to do.

There’s so much to learn. I don’t have enough time. I don’t, I don’t, I’m not understanding. Um, and so stress response is a normal response, uh, that. Rises and falls depending on what’s happening. Um, a good example I used, um, I, I dunno if I’ve shared this with you before, but, um, maybe listeners, uh, heard it previously, but, um, I remember as a kid, [00:03:00] Marie, I, my brother, and I’m telling, showing my age here, we got like 50 cents or so to ride to the milk bar.

Have I shared this with you?

Marie Vakakis: I don’t think so. No.

Jodi: Okay. We used to get, um, pocket change to ride to the milk bar and ride our bikes to the milk bar, um, around, you know, just a few blocks away, um, as kids. And we cut through a vacant block of land and on one day we got, um, swooped by magpie, a classic Australian thing to happen.

And, um, you know, it was like, it was very stressful in the moment. Like, you know, it’s. You know, frightening as well. So you, you, you’re reacting to what’s happening and in the moment. And then like, but then the next week when I’m thinking I’m riding to the milk bar again on Friday, I am anticipating what might go wrong.

I might get swooped again. Then the anxiety can build. Um, and the interesting thing about anxiety is it, it could. You know, if it’s a normal everyday anxiety, again, it’s about something that, um, that is, is, is happening. It could be [00:04:00] that you’ve gotta interview somebody for a job or fire someone, or you’ve got a very difficult conversation to have with someone and you’re worried about the outcome and what might happen.

There’s uncertainty. Um, an anxiety disorder being something that. Anxiety that’s frequent and it’s getting in the way of daily life. It’s extreme. Um, and I sit at that end. I’m actually medicated for my anxiety. Listeners may know that or may not, but, um, I cope really well with it because of all that I do to look after myself.

But, um. Yeah, and anxiety activates the stress response. So it’s the same response, but it’s just activated by, um, for a different reason. So, um, I hope that that kind of gives listeners a bit more insight into kind of the, the differences and, um, hopefully helps them figure out a little bit more where they might be sitting themselves as well.

Marie Vakakis: So how do people know when it’s time to get support? When I, when I’m [00:05:00] talking to people, they’ve already reached out to me, so they’re, they’re in therapy and they’ve already accessed that support. They’ve either gone to their GP or they’ve looked at paying privately or whichever way they’ve come.

Jodi: Yeah.

Marie Vakakis: you are running workshops and people are maybe having a conversation about anxiety, what do you share with them as maybe ideas or things to consider?

That is time to. Get a little support that’s maybe beyond DIY or they could benefit from, from some, you know, mental health or professional support of some kind.

Jodi: Yeah, IO often, often the time to get it is the moment you think, I wonder if I need some extra help. You know, if you’re wondering about that or that thoughts popped into your mind that you feel like you might not be coping and you’re having sort of thoughts like, this is too much. I’m, I’m struggling. Um, I dunno how I’m gonna keep going.

Of course they would all be really good reasons to, to connect, but I, if we sort of step back a little bit and take a sort of [00:06:00] a bigger picture view. Particularly, uh, anxiety. Have a look at how it’s interfering with you kind of getting through each day. Um, you know, we, we know that, um, wellbeing is feeling good and functioning well, but we also know that it is not normal to feel good all the time.

And sometimes you might feel really anxious, uh, for a really good reason. You know, there might be a, um, a big event coming up or there, there might be a significant life change that’s occurring and there’s uncertainty, unknowns. You’re worried. But you also can probably kind of see that once this kind of problem is, uh, passed or this, the, the challenge has been passed, that things might settle down.

And even under those circumstances, even when, you know, it’s temporary, it’s brilliant to get extra help if you, you know, feel like you could do with some extra support and tools. Um, but in a nutshell, what what I do say to people is if you’re not sure if you need [00:07:00] help. Absolutely go and have a chat with your gp.

That’s a really good place to start and just sort of talk through what’s happening. Um, but if the, if the anxiety’s hanging around and it’s really stopping you from doing a lot of things or, or things that you would normally enjoy or want to do, um, then that’s another good reason. So if it’s frequent, extreme, and getting in the way of daily life is, um, is a good way to sort of think about it.

Marie Vakakis: No, I love that. And that’s what I teach in, in Mental Health First Aid and in other workshops is. You know, it gets in the way of day-to-day functioning lasts longer than it should, and it it’s having that impact where it’s affecting sleep and maybe your eating habits and your ability to do the things you want to do.

One of the sayings that I, it’s sort of saying, I guess one of the concepts I talk to people about, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts, is, you know, something could be uncomfortable or there’s uncertainty or it’s unfamiliar and it doesn’t mean it’s unsafe. I see people struggle with an [00:08:00] aversion to difficult emotions or to unpleasant emotions, and they then stop that particular thing.

So they want to avoid the unpleasant feelings because maybe a part of their body or their brain is telling them it’s unsafe, it’s dangerous.

Jodi: Yeah,

Marie Vakakis: that something that you’ve encountered in your work?

Jodi: very much so. Um, very much so. And, and, you know, we, we like to feel good. We, we love that. We don’t like to feel. You know, uncomfortable and, you know, distressing emotions. And, you know, I, I think a lot of it, you know, a lot of it’s kind of in, in how we are raised and what is kind of, you know, how much space and time and support we’re given to just feel what comes up for us.

Um, and so I think if we can look at. Look at the [00:09:00] scenario and what it is, for example, like somebody might be in, in a profession or in a professional role that they don’t feel that they’re not enjoying, it’s not fulfilling, it doesn’t feel like it’s, you know, the right fit anymore. But, um, the discomfort of, you know, having, starting to look somewhere else or start over somewhere else can, can keep you stuck in something that’s not really, you know, meeting your needs and helping you live a sort of a, a meaningful life.

And so I think. I think if we can think about being like what’s important to us and what sort of is. Is underneath the, the choices that we are making and knowing that sometimes like something new, something unfamiliar is going to feel a little unsafe and d for different extents for different people.

But there’s so much to be gained if you can find ways to, um, move through. And still make those choices. Like for example, I started my podcast and I was so filled with [00:10:00] anxiety. The ironies is just so you know, like amusing that, um, I was just so overwhelmed with anxiety and everything in my head said, don’t do it.

Don’t do it. It’s too risky. Like this isn’t safe. You’re putting your thoughts and ideas and conversations out in the world for people to listen to and, and judge maybe, and, but. Deep down, I knew it was COVID and people were struggling and I wanted to help and I was driven by that. That, um. That is what fueled me to be willing to tolerate that in view of kind of moving towards something that was really important.

So, um, I think when we can get our head around, well how important is this? Um, what’s to be gained and maybe how can I break it down so that I can tolerate maybe a little bit of discomfort or increasing discomfort over time rather than maybe jumping in the deep end. Um, but yeah, I think. It’s very easy to distract ourselves [00:11:00] from really difficult feelings.

It’s very easy to pick up the phone, um, and scroll. Um, we don’t really have to be bored and sit with it and notice it. Um, and, you know, we certainly don’t have to like it, but it’s a much healthier choice if we can just notice a name and just. Learn to just say to ourselves, you know, this is how I’m feeling at the moment, and that’s okay.

Um, and we do know, don’t we, that when we can do that, it usually moves on. Um, as opposed to when we fight it, um, it’s like pushing that beach ball under the water. Eventually it’s gonna come out maybe in a way that’s uncontrolled or in a way that we don’t like. So, um, yeah, but certainly, certainly something I, I, I hear people talk about a lot.

That’s for sure.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I think that’s a really beautiful example to share your own vulnerability in the podcast. My, I was definitely the same and the, I made so many mistakes and

Jodi: Yeah, same. Please don’t listen to those first few episodes.[00:12:00] 

Marie Vakakis: I, I wrote in one of my newsletters recently around trying to compare the feeling of. Moving through the anxiety to regaining fitness post an injury. And it, it, I was thinking about it because after my, I had a knee surgery and my running was zero. Like I tried to go for a run. I did like 500 meters. I was like, oh my goodness.

What the, and I was thinking about a couple that I was working with where the pattern of avoiding con difficult conversations, relieved the anxiety in the moment, but then created a more. Difficult conversation next time. And I was, I was kind of reading about this idea of like emotional fitness and sort of tolerating difficulty and that it, it might not have always been anxiety, but I think it was still in that fear base and I was thinking, well, it’s sort of feels like trying to get back into running and.

Part of my brain was like, no, it’s unsafe. It’ll hurt because of my [00:13:00] knee and it did hurt and I had an injury. And then the other part was, no, I’ve done the physio, I’ve done the rehab. It will hurt, but it’s not unsafe or it’s not doing damage unless I go too far. And, and so just trying to think. If I did two runs a week, that’s a hundred a year.

If I did three, even if they were small, that’s 150 ish. And, and so. Trying to think of this idea of, some of it is exposure. I can’t just not have ever run before or not run. I haven’t run, I think my 10 Ks was during lockdown. I haven’t run that distance before. I just kind of did a few kilometers just to come decompress.

I can’t start with that, that my body won’t cope. And so I think some people. Might find that a helpful metaphor of it. It’s a fitness that you build up and even if you only do it 10 minutes, three times a week, that’s, you know, 150 occasions in which you’ve pushed [00:14:00] yourself out. So whether it is the podcasting, whether it is a difficult conversation with a friend or partner, you can only get it done by doing.

Like, you can’t outlearn that you can’t, I mean, reading might provide you some of that education. But you have to like, you have to put your runners on and go for a run. You can’t just watch vid, watch videos about running and listen to podcasts about running and look at all the reviews for the best runners, and then spend hours comparing the garin with the Apple watch, with the aura, with the You’ve gotta put your runners on

Jodi: You gotta do it. You gotta hit the pavement, so to speak. Yeah. Can I, can I share something else with you, Marie, that’s just come to mind?

Marie Vakakis: of course.

Jodi: Um, I, so. You, you obviously know, um, you know, that, you know, I can look back and see anxiety from, from prep. Uh, but I didn’t get diagnosed until I, um, took myself to the GP and was diagnosed with [00:15:00] depression in my mid twenties.

And I started seeing a therapist third time. Lucky with my, um, my psychologist and I, I’ll never forget. Um. I was in the kitchen. This is pre having kids. Uh, I was, I’d taken a little bit of time off work and I, I was just so sad. I was just so down and I put in a phone call to, um, get a call back. Like, obviously, you know, I couldn’t call direct of course.

Um, but. For those times when you’re really struggling, you can request a call back and it could be five hours before you get a call back. It could be the next day. It just, you just don’t know. But I wasn’t coping and I was, I was doing what I’d seen my mom do, which was just clean. I was just cleaning, I was just wiping and vacuuming and just, our house was pristine ’cause she lived with anxiety and that was just how she kind of managed.

And he, he said to me, and I was literally. Curl up in a ball, leaning [00:16:00] up against the, um, you know, knees to chest leaning up against, um, the island bench in the kitchen. And he just said to me, what if, what if you just sit there and feel it? What if you just sit there and feel how you feel, but tell me what you’ll do when you feel better And. I did and I said, I’ll play with, I’ll play with the dogs and um, go outside maybe and throw the ball for them or something. And that, that was in my mid twenties. I’ve honestly, that was the first time I’d sat with a feeling and ’cause it feels so dangerous, like you say, it’s not, it’s not that it’s. It’s not that I was, my life was, was at risk, but my brain had all my life just said, it’s just not safe to feel what comes up.

You’ve just gotta distract yourself and work hard and achieve and you know, just do everything but pay attention to how you’re feeling and, and let it be. And I did that. It was such a turning point ’cause it taught me by, just through that experience of just sitting [00:17:00] there and just letting my tears out, having a jolly good cry.

Eventually the waterworks stopped. Um, one of my dogs was right beside me and I finished the phone call, sat there and cried for a while and just let myself feel sad. And then all of a sudden I sort of thought, oh no, what did I say I do. I’m starting to feel like, oh, I think I could probably get up and go outside now and throw the ball for the dogs.

And it was just this. Monumental moment of, oh, actually I survived that. It’s okay. And in fact, I’ve moved on from it even. It was so powerful, but it feels so hard. It feels so hard, doesn’t it? Now, I did need his support, but eventually I learned to do it for myself.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I love that sitting with it. And one of the questions I wanted to, I guess, get your feedback on is what are some of the things that people may do, either by habit or instinct that actually can make it worse?

Jodi: Oh gosh. It’s, um, you know, and what you said before [00:18:00] is so true in that. And you are referring to the, the couple who with the difficult conversation is that, you know, it’s, um, what Russ, Dr. Russ Harris calls the happiness trap is that in the moment we might get that short term relief, but in the long term we can end up with the problem that we started with the challenge, um, and, and more challenges.

And an example would be if you. If you turned to, um, maybe food or sugar or alcohol to kind of cope so that you can distract yourself and numb yourself from, from the feeling, but then of course, then you’ve still got. Whatever’s happening in terms of your, your emotional health, but now you’re leaning a lot more on something that is really not healthy for you and can cause other problems with relationships and with, with your physical health and with work and sleep.

And, um, and so I think when. I think [00:19:00] if we can, you know, the first step is sort of that awareness, that first step is kind of what, what are the patterns? Um, and all my life it was, it was chocolate. That was just what I would do and I didn’t feel good. I would just go and buy a chocolate bar and, um, you know, we, we can probably all kind of pinpoint what’s our thing.

Um, but now when I have, I might have that urge to go and. Eat something sugary. Um, I kind of rec, I can kind of say to myself, I can just have that enough awareness to be able to say it’s, that’s not. That’s not actually gonna solve this for me. ’cause you know, I used to eat a whole block of Cadbury chocolate and then I would just feel sick and un upset.

Um, and so, yeah, I think the things that that can get in the way are those behaviors and those choices that are distracting or numbing or another big, another big. Challenges avoidance. It’s not, not doing the [00:20:00] things that are really important and that, um, might, you know, we will bring you joy and connection and, you know, new experiences and, and when we do avoid doing the things that might make us a bit uncomfortable, um, unfortunately.

It can make our world really small and, and often for people with anxiety who might choose not to go to a, um, a function connect with other people or put their hand up for a promotion. Um, you know, in the end it, it’s, it really can rob you of opportunities and, and so. I’m really pleased that we can, we can talk about this ’cause there’s, there’s lots of things that people will do.

Um, but the, it feels like the harder path, but it actually ultimately is the easier road to just go. I am just feeling really sad right now and it’s just gonna be a morning where I’m feeling sad. I’ll say that to myself sometimes, or I’ll say. I’m feeling flat or I’m feeling frustrated, or I’m feeling anxious, or I’m feeling worried.

[00:21:00] Um, worries. You know, we can manage differently, but I’ll just say to myself, I’ll notice how I’m feeling. I’ll know about, I’ll just say, I’m just gonna feel like this for a while. And then I usually get into work. I sit at my desk and do some work, and an hour later I’m ready to go and make a coffee. And I almost check in with myself and realise, oh, I’ve kind of moved through that.

I’ve kind of moved through it. Um, and if I haven’t, I’ll just relabel it. Um, knowing that it’s really normal to have all sorts of emotions and I, I think if we can really let people know that it’s just not normal to be happy all the time, despite what you see around you, it’s not, it’s not normal to feel all sorts of feelings and giving ourselves permission to, to feel whatever comes up for us.

It’s, it’s such a kindness to ourselves. Um, but it’s not easy to do.

Marie Vakakis: It’s not for everyone. No, it’s not easy. And as you were talking about the, the. The habit of, of using chocolate to cope. One of the [00:22:00] observations I’ve had recently with some of the conversations I’ve had, not just in my therapy room, but out and about, is some people I suspect resist doing the things for themselves that they know will be helpful because they’re kind of still wanting that external stressor or that other person.

To change. So for example, they might have a crappy job and they somehow want the boss to change or the conditions to change. And they keep eating, let’s say the block of chocolate, which then spikes your sugar, impacts your mood. The emulsifies might upset your stomach. You might end up with other gastrointestinal things, you’re not having your stable diet.

It might then impact your sleep because you’re like, well, I’ve had such a crappy day. I am gonna just binge watch tv. And in a way it’s sabotaging. But they also don’t want to change because then it feels like the other person won.

Jodi: Yeah.

Marie Vakakis: And, and I’ve noticed this a little bit [00:23:00] with some particular topics. I’m not sure how to, I haven’t quite maybe formulated it in my head, but I, I think some people don’t want to look inward at what can I control?

What’s within my grasp, what do I need to do differently or, yes, it’s unfair. It shouldn’t happen. And it is what’s happening? What can I do different? How do you see, do you see some of that play out in the conversations you have around anxiety or in any of the research that you’ve, you’ve, um, put together for your books?

Jodi: Oh goodness. Yes. And it just, it just brings me straight to acceptance and that there’s this messy kind of place where we can kind of. We are sitting in this messy kind of cloud, in, in between kind of, you know, what’s happened and acceptance and you know, it’s, it’s good to notice a name and recognise what’s happening and we [00:24:00] can, there are things that we can do for ourselves to, um, improve how we feel, but we, we, when we get to a point of acceptance, it, it’s just like. It, it can be such a relief because you, you’re just kind of ending that struggle with what it is that’s happening and ending that weight for other people to change. And, and, and we, we can, we can only, can only make decisions about what we do. And acceptance, like you say, can feel for people like they’ve won, like somehow I’m giving up, but.

I think it’s, it’s really good to understand that acceptance doesn’t mean that in the same way that forgiveness doesn’t mean that you okay with how somebody’s treated you. Um, it it’s about how is this struggle affecting me and so. [00:25:00] know, here at home, you know, one of the things that we will say is it is what it is.

And I read, um, I’ve got the Daily Stoic, I dunno if you’ve read any stoic philosophy. Um, I read The Daily Stoic at the moment. Uh, so I, I’ve obviously haven’t had it for a full year because it’s literally one every day and it’s dated, um, and. A lot of the stoic philosophy, and it’s not about being stoic as in, um, unemotional and unfeeling and holding strong, stoic philosophy is about focus on what you, there’s so much to it, but you know, it’s time wasted.

When we, we, we spend time thinking about what other people could or should, or, you know, we wish that they would’ve done differently. Um, and what’s done is done. All we can focus on is how we can. Move forward. And that acceptance is, it’s so powerful because it stops you holding on, wishing and hoping that things were different and [00:26:00] enables you then to sort of take a bit more charge and a bit more control about, um, how you’re gonna move forward.

So, um, but it is, it’s so painful. I’ve been there as well. Like I’ve had, you know, incidents in my life where I felt really wronged and. I’ve got to a point of acceptance and then I’ve got later to a point of forgiveness because, um, I read a stoic passage the other day, which was about, um, being unforgiving is like holding onto a hot coal and expecting the other person’s hand to burn, um, or expecting other person to hurt because of it.

And it’s, that’s the truth of it. It, it’s. It’s what affects us, not them. They’re not thinking about us. So, um, hard things to do, easier to do when they’ve got someone like you to support them through kind of thinking these things through and answering those questions about, well, hang on, but what they did isn’t okay.

You know, and, and getting, getting sort of being able to move through that and past it as [00:27:00] well.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I love that book. I recommend it as well to people. So if you haven’t heard of it, get the book, the Daily Stoic. It is fantastic. And it’s just one page each day they’re dated and you just. Digest that little piece of wisdom from philosophers. And that’s not always the stoic, oh, is it always the stoic then?

No, it’s um, it’s a really good, good book. But yeah, I like that saying of, I think it’s picking up hot coal, or the other one is drinking poison and expecting the other to die.

Jodi: Ah, yes.

Marie Vakakis: I think that’s a really powerful thing and I see it a lot. But you know, we talk a lot about when we cross over on our podcast about the relational aspect of this and sometimes it can be really hard to accept the role we’re playing in something.

And how that can sometimes push away the very thing we want or be hindering the very progress that we want. And, and maybe sort of to, to wind it, not wind up the episode, but sort of bring it round to how can someone help a person that they love or [00:28:00] care about who’s anxious without maybe going into fix it mode or reassurance mode, which.

So many people think is really helpful, and as we keep talking about whenever we have episodes talking about sort of relationships, we kind of don’t say that’s the case.

Jodi: It, it’s so true. And yet it’s, it can be a bit of a default, can’t it? And, um, that, because, you know, I, I think about. of all, like a parenting relationship, is that when our kids are hurting or anxious about something, let’s use, uh, anxious about, uh, very excited about being in the school play, but then terrified of being in the school play and, you know, in.

With, with love in their heart and well-meaning intentions. A parent could say, you’ll be fine. This is what you wanted to do, don’t worry about it. You’re gonna be okay. Or, um, and, and unfortunately, you know [00:29:00] that, that, that can help, that can help a lot. I got a lot of that when I was a kid and that helped.

Like when, when my mom would say, you’re gonna be okay. It’s all gonna work out. That was all I needed, but I wasn’t able to. Manage anything on my own, um, not for a long time anyway. And so it can be very well-meaning to, to offer reassurance. And sometimes it can start off with just on one or two occasions that then it can sort of really start to snowball and become really the go-to way that a young person copes with any anxiety that they’re feeling is to, um, kind of get that reassurance, which is.

An avoidance strategy. Really at its heart, it’s the anxiety showing up. I’m not able to handle it. I don’t have the skills, I don’t have the tools, which everyone can learn over time. So you’re kind of looking outside of yourself for support and, um, someone says it’s gonna be okay. The feeling does go away for a while.

Um, so helping other people with their anxiety, I think, you know, going, going to fix it [00:30:00] mode is, is not what really. Anybody wants, unless they ask for it, is how I like to think about it. And Marie, you, you might have more to say on that, but we, when we’ve got a problem and we share it with someone, we really wanna be heard.

We wanna be listened to. And it’s really nice when other people can say, Hey, that sucks, or, I understand why you’re feeling that way, or I, I’d feel that way too. Or even if, look, I’ve never been in your shoes, but it sounds like that’s like really awful that. Kind of validation is really, it’s really brings us closer.

Do you feel really more connected and strengthens relationships? But you know, when somebody dives into fix it mode, you can feel really like, you can just feel really unseen and, um, and disappointed or let down by a conversation. So what? What does help for anxiety is I think. First of all, learning a bit about it, like understanding it because, um, [00:31:00] some people don’t, don’t.

Just like when anxiety is debilitating, especially, you know, like for me, I look at my gosh, 47 years since I’ve been a 4-year-old kid with, um, breathing troubles and an upset tummy saying, I don’t wanna go to school. You know? Um, and I think of Peter, my partner and what he’s learned. So he, he learned a lot about what anxiety is like, what it, it feels like, why it happens.

And that’s a first step because we don’t. We don’t feel and act the way we do ’cause we want to. It’s just the way our brain and body are responding to something that doesn’t feel safe. So understanding is, is really good. I think too, also asking us, those of us that you know that are anxious, if you’re spend a lot of time with us, ask us what helps and what would be.

You know, what would be helpful if, if anxiety shows up and, um, and so that, that could mean, you know, you can share with your partner. Hey, what I actually find is [00:32:00] sometimes I just need to get five minutes alone, like maybe away from the kids or maybe just step outside in the sunshine or just, just some time out.

Or it could be that I need to go and put my face in a bowl of cold water if I’m feeling really anxious, um, or because. When we are very anxious, often we can’t think of what we need. Um, in that moment we can get so overwhelmed with anxiety that there’s a part of our brain that we can’t access that helps us make good decisions about what to do next.

Um, I think some compassion is really helpful, uh, because sometimes we are a bit irrational when, when we are really anxious about something we can be, um. You know, irrational about, gosh, classic for me was, was ear early days was, um, I’ve left the hair straightener on, I’ve left the iron on when I know that I’ve always turned it off at the power and unplugged it, but.

My anxiety would start to build, you know, [00:33:00] have I turned it off? Have I unplugged it? And so, um, having a little bit of compassion. ’cause it can be a bit frustrating sometimes when somebody’s anxious and maybe they’re behaving in a way that’s not, doesn’t make sense to you. Um, and I think just lots of, lots of love and also, you know, asking and.

Letting the person know that if, if they wanted to get some more help, that you’re gonna support them and be there alongside them if they, they need a little thing, a little extra. But, um, I think it’s, it’s particularly hard in, in a relationship when one person is really anxious and the other person just doesn’t have a good understanding of it.

And it just makes no sense. And, um. The person with anxiety can feel a bit dismissed, uh, because it’s all the classic kind of, you know, but it’s, it’s all in your head. Um, it’s very much in your head, it’s very much in your body. It’s very much a whole body, um, mind and body response. And it’s, um, it can be terrifying.

So, um, yeah, they’re just a, they’re just a few ideas, but I’m interested to, I’m interested to hear what you would add to that.[00:34:00] 

Marie Vakakis: I, I agree, and I think that’s one of the hardest things is it comes down to that acceptance as well. And when people are saying, oh, don’t worry about it. They think they’re moving you through it, but it is dismissing it and it doesn’t make the situation go away. When it comes to relationships, I see that it actually means that person goes to you less, and so.

Children start to learn that pretty quickly that this is not something I can go to my parents about. I’m just using parents as an example. Or a partner might just slowly start or not share as much about their day if their partner’s response was unhelpful, because they’re also avoiding the unpleasant feeling of not being heard or understood.

But they also might not be able to do anything about. Helping their partner understand that. And so it slowly erodes that connection over time. It’s not immediate, but slowly, slowly, someone’s left with a [00:35:00] feeling of my person partner doesn’t know what’s happening in my life. They’re not aware of my current stresses.

You know, if something bad happens, I might. Mm, hesitate to call them because I’m not gonna get the response that I want. And it, they can start to feel lonely. And so they’ll come to me in therapy and say, we feel lonely, or we’re having trouble communicating. And each person’s like, I don’t know what you mean.

It’s so obvious. And it’s those little, um, mis misattunement and offering solutions or trying to fix it and not validating and empathising and. And I say that to some people and they’re like, yes, absolutely. And some other people are like, I dunno what those words mean.

Jodi: Yeah.

Marie Vakakis: And they struggle because they think it means endorsing or accepting a particular thought or belief.

So if I was to say, I’ve had so nervous about a podcast episode and my partner was like, I wouldn’t be nervous, or, [00:36:00] you know, something, I’m like, that’s not, that’s not helpful. If he, he might think if I said. It makes sense that you are nervous, that he agrees that I should be nervous. And so we can go around in circle, but even saying, tell me more.

Or What’s that like? Or what do you imagine’s going to happen? You can get to problem solving. You can say, what have you done before? Do you want me to role play it with you? Is there anything you need help with the tech setup? Like there are things that you can do, but if that empathy isn’t there to begin with, if you can’t validate that, I see for you.

You are having a hard time. The rest won’t, won’t land. It’s not the same as if my car breaks down and I call someone. I don’t want them to ask me how I’m feeling about my car broken down. Come and come and pick me up. So yeah, fix my car. So for functional things like that, for work, for, you know, building a bridge or making a spreadsheet, there are things that, yes, you fix it, you problem solve it, you get in there, you get it done.

When it comes to [00:37:00] emotions and relationships, that same skill, that’s an asset in so many other areas. Can really fracture a relationship, and it might not. It might not happen straight away. It’s slowly, slowly that that person can feel lonely and disconnected, and then you’re really missing out on actually being able to support them with what they need or how they want to be seen in the world.

Jodi: It’s, it’s so true. Uh, uh, you know, it’s funny, um, funny, it wasn’t funny at the time, but there was a, a little, it’s not even an incident, um, but just a little, um, experience that I had here at home yesterday was I wanted to make, um, a potato bake. You know how thinly you have to slice the potatoes? Have you, have you made a potato where you’ve done

Marie Vakakis: I, we have one, a Greek one called a, and it’s potato, zucchini, and then feta cheese, and it’s all layered.

Jodi: Yum. So I found in the top of my kitchen cupboard a an [00:38:00] electric mandolin slicer. And I’m like, what a ripper. I’m not gonna have to thinly slice a kilo of potatoes. Anyway, I was working out how to set it up and. Pete was on his way out to cricket, and I found the slicer and I set it up, but as I started slicing the potatoes with it, they were too thick.

And I like, these things take forever to cook. And I just knew straight away it’s too thick. And he could see that I had a big job ahead of me. And he’s like, it’s fine. It’s good. That’s great. And I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s they’re, they’re too thick. He’s like, no, no, no, no. They, they’re good. They’re good.

He’s just, he’s trying to tell me they’re good and I’m trying to tell him they’re not. And anyway, um, he, he was just so adamant that it was gonna be okay because. And, and we got to the bottom of it later and, and I just got so frustrated because I’m, I’m just like, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Have you ever made one of these things, like they take forever to cook anyway, so it was a real disconnect. And he goes, no, that’s okay. Do what you need to do. Whatever you need to do. [00:39:00] If you, because he saw me starting to cut them with the knife and just moving on and, um. Anyway, when he got home, anyway, I found it.

I found another thing I could put in to make it thinner and I managed to use it and it was all good in the end. But I said to him, I said to him when he got home, I said, what was that about? Because you were just so damn sure that those potatoes were, were gonna be, um, okay. And I said, was it that you were worried about me having to do more work?

He said, yeah. He said, I was just trying to insist that you use the contraption to make your life a little bit easier. And, and I’m like, I thought that’s what it was. And I said, but for me, I just thought, you’re not, you’re not listening to me. Because it took nearly two hours for this thing to cook and they were paper thin.

And so, yeah, so we, you know, it’s just a funny little example, but in the moment I was so frustrated that he wasn’t listening. But when we talked about it later. It was from a place of, he just wanted my life to be, he just wanted me to have two minutes of slicing potatoes with a machine, then 15 [00:40:00] minutes, you know, that was, that was where it was coming from.

But, um, it just, the, that example just popped to mind when you said about how it can, it moves you further apart than closer together when you are not being listened to.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, and then you could have been fighting about that and then been shitty at that, and then the whole day goes blown up and like all I wanted was my baked potatoes

Jodi: Exactly. I just wanted a really nice, well cooked potato bake. But yeah, no, it’s, um, yeah, and look, you, you’re right, like when it comes to our emotions just, and it’s not easy for everyone, like it’s very much straight to fixing it. A lot of people, that’s a default and you might not get it right all the time, and that’s okay, but just have that awareness and have, and like.

Like, you know what, what you talk about in with your couples is having that, um, they’re having the conversations to understand where each per person is coming from. So sometimes it’s okay, isn’t it just to say, well, what do you need? Like, what would help? Like if you can accept the feedback [00:41:00] that that fix it mode isn’t helping and just sort of say, well, what would help then?

Um, you know, that’s a really great step forward too, isn’t it? But not easy. Again, straightforward, but not easy.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So we could talk about this forever, but I think there might be several, um, moments like that in how kitchens around Australia come around the world coming into the holiday season. So.

Jodi: Potato baked gate? Yes.

Marie Vakakis: Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. We could, I mean, we could talk about this forever.

There’s so many ways anxiety shows up in our personal life, in our relationships, and I mean, how many seasons have you got and you’re still learning new things and discussing it from different angles. So thank you for joining me on this complex life.

Jodi: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I’ll see you again soon.