[00:00:00] Ashton Hayes: Hello and welcome to the Collaboration between myself, Ashton Hayes from the Becoming an A-M-H-S-W Podcast, and Marie Vakakis from the Inside Social Work Podcast. We have been talking this week about money, money stories, money blocks. The worth of money and we’re just going to have a discussion about that and wrap that up for you 

[00:00:29] Marie Vakakis: today.

[00:00:30] Ashton Hayes: I can’t 

[00:00:31] Marie Vakakis: help but have that song in my head, that Money, money, money. Is that really old? It is an old song, isn’t it? It’s like from eighties or Yes. Where did that come from? I don’t know. I’m picturing some sort of scene in Pretty Woman maybe. I’m not sure. Anyway, money is an unavoidable part of running. A business.

[00:00:53] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. It’s also an unavoidable part of adulting because we need money [00:01:00] to buy stuff to live, to pay for expenses. We work to earn money. We pay off student loans. It is a topic that impacts. Almost every single part of our life, and yet something we don’t often talk about. Something that we even hesitated to kind of, we knew it was an important thing to discuss.

[00:01:21] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And we wrestled with the kinds of topics, verse being spontaneous, verse, unpacking things live. So you could hear our sort of first draft, and I think we landed on a little bit of everything. Mm-hmm. How has this week’s topic or theme landed with you? Have you. What have you been digesting or mulling over as we talk about money, beliefs, money stories, myths around social workers and charging.

[00:01:45] Marie Vakakis: Thinking about the future, investing like a, the gender pay gap, gender expectations around low paid work. A lot of things have come up. On and off air. What’s sort of bubbling away for you? What are you kind of chewing on or [00:02:00] digesting? 

[00:02:00] Ashton Hayes: I think I am thinking about some of the old fashioned ways of managing money versus some of the.

[00:02:11] Ashton Hayes: Contemporary ideas around existing in a capitalist society, and I think there’s space for the old and the new. I think transparency around money is key. The concept of money as being an entity in terms of it being good, evil. Anthropomorphised in some way is really damaging because people perceive it through the lenses, through which they, you know, grew up family of origin and the experiences in their environment around them.

[00:02:39] Ashton Hayes: And that can be so impactful on how you move through the world and how you relate to money. I think that in relationships, money is important. I still think that people get embarrassed or shy of speaking about finances and how that looks. You mentioned in one of the episodes [00:03:00] about couples talking about money and this concept of it being unromantic to decide on how finances are going to be distributed through.

[00:03:10] Ashton Hayes: The relationship is very problematic and leads to situations of potential financial abuse and ultimately can be very damaging to relationships. But I also think the gendered idea of money is something that we need to speak about a little bit more. Where women are traditionally paid less and that women often don’t speak up, ask for pay increases, or ask to be paid.

[00:03:39] Ashton Hayes: What they’re worth. 

[00:03:40] Marie Vakakis: There’s so much in that. I think that transparency around money is definitely a big part. As you’re talking about couples. I think trying to think about what you think is fair is a really important one, and how you divide costs and. That changes when children are in the picture. And it also changes if people [00:04:00] go through periods of illness or study.

[00:04:02] Marie Vakakis: How do you collectively pull money together? And some of the early finance, I guess, literature that I consumed, had this idea of if you are de facto or married, it’s wonders. Dessert. Two spoons. Mm-hmm. Stop seeing it as mine yours. Tit for T kind of thing. But this idea of money holding beliefs as well, really stuck out to me around how some people feel if their female partner out earns a male partner.

[00:04:31] Marie Vakakis: There’s maybe feelings of inadequacy or judgment. There’s maybe old notions of being a provider. It’s confronting, maybe it’s a masculinity or some jobs people won’t apply for. ’cause they feel like, well, if that’s. This pay bracket, I’m not skilled enough. That’s only for really smart people. So our beliefs about money, the stories we tell ourselves change the opportunities we expose ourselves to.

[00:04:58] Marie Vakakis: We talked about putting a hat in the ring, but more [00:05:00] of a what holds us back in an earlier episode. And I don’t know, they’re just, they’re ongoing conversations and thoughts and I’ve been really fortunate to find some really good coaches along the way who have done some work on money stories, but. If you’re not that far along in your business or in your life, you can DIY.

[00:05:19] Marie Vakakis: Some of this, you can do a lot just by thinking about and ask, asking each other or yourself, where did my beliefs about money come from? My work ethic? Talking to your partner about what their beliefs of money are. Some places through your EAP program or through your superannuation, you can use sometimes, depending on your package, that money for a financial advisor.

[00:05:41] Marie Vakakis: So there are ways to improve financial literacy. I think it’s a really important thing. ’cause then it helps you understand so many of these other things and feel more. Confident to have the conversations, even if you don’t know where it’s gonna lead, starting them is really helpful. 

[00:05:58] Ashton Hayes: I think you’re so right and [00:06:00] I think there are a couple of things that I would tell my younger self.

[00:06:07] Ashton Hayes: The first is that always have your own bank account, so irrespective of whether you have a joint bank account or shared bank account or shared access to money. No matter what, you should have your own bank account as well, and what you do with that is up to you, but it means that there is a level of independence that gives you opportunities.

[00:06:28] Ashton Hayes: The second thing is, as I come to a period of my life where I think more about retirement, I mean, not yet. There’s a, there’s still a bit of go in me, in me yet, but I can see it in a way that I didn’t see it. You know, 15, 20 years ago, and that is to absolutely put money into your super. And obviously I’m not a financial advisor, but think about the fact that one day you will be retiring and to retire, well, you do need to [00:07:00] have access to money.

[00:07:01] Ashton Hayes: I was watching a TikTok the other day where there were women interviewing people in the street. How old are you? How much do you have in savings? And you know, there were varying answers. There were a couple of older chaps that spoke to having a couple of million in saving, and then there was a woman. Who said that she was 70 and she was just coming from work.

[00:07:24] Ashton Hayes: She was still working full time. She was hoping to buy a property, but she hadn’t been able to save the deposit to date. And her real concern was that she wasn’t able to retire and at 70 she really wanted to retire. And I think some of the things that we need to remember is there are. Generations of women who did not have access to superannuation.

[00:07:47] Ashton Hayes: When you stay at home, if you choose to be a stay at home parent, you know, options for retirement still need to be considered in that space. And I think that is something that I would tell my [00:08:00] frivolous young self that retirement will happen. Time does pass. It doesn’t feel like it in your twenties, but it does.

[00:08:06] Ashton Hayes: Yeah. I 

[00:08:06] Marie Vakakis: spend, yeah, I spend. A lot of time thinking about that. When I work with more with my mentees and, and supervisees, even with some couples, it’s really getting them talking about if you are having children, how your super is being contributed to. And how costs of childcare, it’s not against one person’s wage, it’s as a collective, and really thinking intentionally about that, how you handle it, because the compound interest or the compound exposure to your industry.

[00:08:39] Marie Vakakis: Is significant. And so if I could go back in time and do something different, it would be to put five or 10 grand in shares and just leave it there. That compound interest. The, the earlier you do it, the quicker you do it, the better the results. And so. Educating yourself around those things and starting to have those tough conversations [00:09:00] is so important because I’ve seen it and I’ve seen it go poorly, and I’ve seen it go really well where people think they’re on the same page and they might say, look, oh, we’re really excited to have kids.

[00:09:09] Marie Vakakis: Oh, they’ve always wanted to be a dad, or She’s always wanted to be a mom. They, then they have kids and it’s like. This is my money, and I’ve seen people, like I’ve heard stories and I’ve read on Quora or read it where people are like, he’s expecting me to pay him back for the bills that he paid while I was on parental leave.

[00:09:25] Marie Vakakis: Is that normal? 

[00:09:26] Ashton Hayes: Mm. 

[00:09:26] Marie Vakakis: No. That’s not fucking normal. That’s not okay if you’re raising someone’s child, that those expenses should be allocate, reallocate in a way that matches the contribution of child rearing. So and so, you can’t have those conversations. If you don’t feel comfortable to talk about money, you need to start somewhere.

[00:09:46] Marie Vakakis: So this goes not just into what we charge for our worth. It’s how we feel worthy as people. It’s capitalism, consumerism, economics, our financial security. Like it’s actually, it’s a big topic [00:10:00] and I’ve done a lot of study over a decade of tertiary study and there was not one single subject around finances in high school unless you chose accounting.

[00:10:12] Marie Vakakis: There was not a single talk workshop, anything about financial literacy. And yet it can make or break you. It’s incredible. So I think it’s a topic we need to keep talking about. And if people have questions, I would love to hear them because I’m happy to do another series on this or another episode, a joint one, a solo, whatever, depending on, you know, whatever you want, let us know.

[00:10:38] Marie Vakakis: Be we need to talk about this, and we’re talking about it as two. Business owners, social workers with complex money stories and different generations, and so I think we can add a lot of. Food for thought to this. 

[00:10:51] Ashton Hayes: I definitely think we can, and you know, it’s not about us giving financial advice obviously, because we’re not financial advisors, but [00:11:00] what we are doing is sharing our own stories.

[00:11:03] Ashton Hayes: We would love to share your stories and just opening up that space to have a discussion about something that does feel uncomfortable, but ultimately ignoring it will be to your detriment and. There is the potential here through transparency to create a whole heap of new, very healthy stories. 

[00:11:23] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:24] Marie Vakakis: Anything else come to mind as we digest? This week’s topic, 

[00:11:28] Ashton Hayes: I think just go gently with yourself around money. It can be a scary topic. I think also reframe the way you talk about it. So I hear a lot of people saying things, oh, I don’t really understand money, or it’s not, oh, you know, it’s not really my thing.

[00:11:42] Ashton Hayes: And I’m guilty of saying to social workers all the time when I’m adding up their hours for mental health accreditation. Oh, well, I, I’m not a mathematician, I’m a social worker. But ultimately, if we reframe the language and say. This is a topic that I’m interested in and that I’m learning more [00:12:00] about. You are more inclined to engage positively with it than saying I don’t know anything about it.

[00:12:05] Marie Vakakis: Do you think it’s, do you think it’s an uncomfortable thing for someone to actually say, oh no, but I’m good with money? Like maybe there’s a judgment in actually saying, not saying, oh, I’m bad with money, or I don’t understand finances. Like maybe it goes into that do gooder. You should do it for free.

[00:12:22] Marie Vakakis: Money’s not so important. You do the work you love. Maybe there’s actually something that people might find confronting if you said, yeah, I invest, I’ve learned about interest. I negotiated my interest. On my home loan, I’m thinking about my diversifying my portfolio. Of course I’m thinking about retirement.

[00:12:39] Marie Vakakis: Like do you think that that might catch some people off guard, like it’s some other world out there somewhere that they shouldn’t talk about? Yeah, I 

[00:12:45] Ashton Hayes: absolutely do and I think if you know someone like that, make friends with them, they’re gonna be able to tell you all kinds of fabulous things. 

[00:12:53] Marie Vakakis: Is 

[00:12:53] Ashton Hayes: that what your 

[00:12:53] Marie Vakakis: friend?

[00:12:53] Marie Vakakis: 100%. 

[00:12:56] Ashton Hayes: You just want my, 

[00:12:57] Marie Vakakis: you just want my fancy camera. 

[00:12:58] Ashton Hayes: Maria’s talking [00:13:00] about her new podcasting camera, which came up in discussion and was an investment that she made. And because I too like things that are sparkly and shiny, I’m very keen to get involved in her camera by purchasing one of my own I listeners.

[00:13:19] Ashton Hayes: I am not going to do that right now. 

[00:13:22] Marie Vakakis: I’m just winding you up, but maybe by the time this has been released, you might have, it’s a very pretty camera. Pretty camera. So money, money stories, money beliefs. If you were to give people a sort of takeaway from this, so if they’ve listened to this series, maybe they wanna listen to it twice over and pick up different things.

[00:13:42] Marie Vakakis: If they were in the car driving or they kind of on their walk, which most of us tend to listen to podcasts while we’re doing something else. What’s one thing that you might encourage people to consider when they, when the podcast episode ends, if they wanna take an actionable. Step, 

[00:13:57] Ashton Hayes: I would really recommend reviewing your money [00:14:00] stories.

[00:14:00] Ashton Hayes: Involve yourself in the journaling prompts that are very specific to money stories, money blocks. Be gentle with yourself about it, but we are social workers. Critical reflection is core to what we do and how we operate. You can definitely incorporate money in that, and I believe that it will serve you well.

[00:14:22] Marie Vakakis: What are some of the prompts, like, we’ll pop a link to that in the show notes, but what are some of the prompts that, like what kinds of things are we hearing? 

[00:14:31] Ashton Hayes: Things like People with money are bad. What were you told about money when you were a child? Was money scarce or abundant? Were you taught that money was.

[00:14:42] Ashton Hayes: Good, evil or otherwise. I think that’s one of the most important things. The attributing of a characteristic to money contribute to avoidance, and that, of course can contribute to a diminished literacy, which ultimately will serve you to [00:15:00] understand how money works, how it can work for you, and how you can have a lifestyle that suits you.

[00:15:07] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. 

[00:15:07] Ashton Hayes: So maybe 

[00:15:08] Marie Vakakis: thinking about what are your money stories? Mm. If you need some more granular things, Ashton has a, I guess a prompt journaling prompt guy. Yeah. I would encourage you to talk to, yeah, like your partner or housemates or anyone even be on a sales. Listen to this podcast episode about money.

[00:15:25] Marie Vakakis: I’m very big on overing things and then just sort of saying, I had some thoughts about my money stories. I never considered it before or, yeah, this. Made me think about something else. So really just starting to open up the conversation like, like you said, what was money? Was it talked about? Yeah. In your family and how it’s kind of like sex, right?

[00:15:46] Marie Vakakis: Like what’s talked about and what’s not talked about Sends a message. So was it we never talk about money or was it you always saw your parents spend money and you never knew how they made it, or you always saw it go on credit. And so that was. What [00:16:00] you did. ’cause sometimes we can overcompensate or we can surrender to the pattern.

[00:16:03] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So you might have grown up in a family that put a lot of stuff on credit card and you saw your parents go into heaps of debt. So you might have gone the complete opposite and been very careful about not spending more than you earn. 

[00:16:14] Ashton Hayes: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:14] Marie Vakakis: Or you might’ve just seen that as that’s just what you do and not realised that that’s not serving you well and that it.

[00:16:21] Marie Vakakis: Add debt and you pay interest and you might not have even understood interest. So having some conversations around that and understanding, I would say spend the time to understand where your money goes, how much is coming in and where it’s going. Yeah, and you might need to painstakingly track it on a spreadsheet, go through your bank statement, pull it out as a CSV file, whatever.

[00:16:44] Marie Vakakis: Go on Etsy, get a pretty template if that’s what you want, but don’t. Spend too much money on it and don’t do it when you are your most tired. If this is something that is already hard and is new and it’s uncomfortable, don’t do it on Friday night when you are pooped. [00:17:00] It’s not going to work. Do it midday on a Saturday when you’ve had a sleepy, maybe a nice walk or breakfast.

[00:17:06] Marie Vakakis: Spend a couple of hours and do it. So don’t set yourself up to fail. Yeah. And do something with it. And if you have done something with it or this episode, spark something, let us know. We’d love to hear from you because we are, I know I am. Ashian is so passionate about helping other social workers, small business owners, even our clients feel equipped and confident and competent, and understanding our money stories and our psychological blocks around that is one piece of that that I’m very keen on helping people understand more about.

[00:17:41] Ashton Hayes: Yeah, I am too. Absolutely. It makes such a difference when you understand the stories, the blocks. And what you can do moving forward. 

[00:17:50] Marie Vakakis: So I think, we’ll, we might wrap it up there. Yeah, that’s our week done talking about money. I hope you’ve enjoyed this mini series with Ashton [00:18:00] Hayes from the A MHS, becoming an A-M-H-S-W Podcast, becoming an A-M-H-S-W, the podcast.

[00:18:05] Marie Vakakis: I should know it by now, I’ve said it so many times. And me, Marie Vakakis from the Inside Social Work podcast. Thank you so much for having us in your ears. This week and we would love to hear from you. We, we want the validation folks, so come on, let us know. Tag us in places, reach out to us, comment on LinkedIn.

[00:18:23] Marie Vakakis: Don’t just lurk. We wanna know that this is helpful so that we can keep creating more stuff that you find useful and it helps us feel warm and fuzzy. 

[00:18:32] Ashton Hayes: Thank you everybody for listening, and yes, do get in touch. We really want to hear from you. 

[00:18:37] Marie Vakakis: Thanks. 

[00:18:37] Ashton Hayes: Bye.