[00:00:00] Marie: Have you ever felt shut out by a teen you love and wondered what happened to us? That’s the focus of today’s encore episode. This was a listener question from a couple of years ago, and it was one of the most popular episodes, so I wanted to replay it. This was a powerful question from a 62-year-old dad who feels sidelined by his teenage daughters.

[00:00:21] Marie: If you’ve en. If you’ve ever wondered what your teens are really thinking or how to cope when you feel dismissed, you are not alone. In this episode, I unpack what’s happening in adolescence, why individuation can feel like rejection, and some of the strategies that I suggest to families that might be able to help you.

[00:00:41] Marie: I’ll talk about moving from manager to consultant, using I statements that reduce defensiveness and how to replace an angry pursuit with in. With invitations for closeness, if this resonates for you and you’d like more structured support, my Connected Teens program is designed to help parents [00:01:00] build safer and stronger relationships with their adolescents.

[00:01:03] Marie: You can find out more on my website or in the show notes. All right, let’s replay this original conversation. Alright, let’s replay the original episode.

[00:01:15] Marie: Hello, and welcome back to this complex life today. I have a listener question. Hi Marie. I am a 62 year old dad of two teenage girls, and I think I’m quite progressive and have had life experience that could be shared if they would only seem a little bit interested in who I am as a person and the life I have experienced.

[00:01:36] Marie: What are they really thinking about me? And what strategies can I use to cope when I feel dismissed? Oh, dear parent, that’s a really tough one. And I can sense maybe some despair and some nervousness about what’s happening to the relationship. Is there a rupture? Is there a lost connection that could be a lot happening right [00:02:00] now?

[00:02:00] Marie: So I want to go through a few things that I think could be really helpful to keep in mind. And again, this is. general in nature, but it might give you some things to think about. I’m really glad that you wrote in because starting to understand what you can do differently is probably the most helpful thing because we can’t change other people’s behavior, we can only control ourselves.

[00:02:25] Marie: So that’s a really good first step. Two teenage girls. Okay, so at this time around adolescence, we see a lot of changes. It is very normal and expected for teenagers to start to gravitate towards their peers more, to explore establishing their own identities, and to start to separate from their families.

[00:02:48] Marie: And this might be subtle with small changes in music taste, in fashion, in hairstyles, or it could be with bigger things like exploring their own [00:03:00] Religious interest or moving away from religion or different political interests. So that can cause some rupture in families, especially if there are some values that you hold dear and, you know, quite important in your family.

[00:03:13] Marie: Seeing your children start to challenge those or ignore them altogether can be really hard. But this is part of developing themselves. Their job as adolescents is to figure out the person they’re going to be, who they are, what they’re interested in, how they’re going to move through the world. So these are all parts that come along with that, that individuation process and that maturation, and that can be really painful for parents.

[00:03:43] Marie: So it’s worth knowing that it doesn’t mean you’ve necessarily done something wrong. Or that they are trying to be offensive if they’ve gone against a belief that you’ve had as a family. They’re trying to figure out who they are and what’s important to them. Part of [00:04:00] becoming an adult is also figuring out your individual expression.

[00:04:05] Marie: And how you relate to other people and that can be quite a kind of egocentric process. It means we can really focus on ourselves and become the main character of our story. And so it’s important to recognise that that’s something that they’re going through, that they are the main character, and that might not be easy to sit with, but you might not be important in that story right now or how their view in the world is really based on themselves.

[00:04:34] Marie: That does change as we get older, but it’s quite, um, quite common, I guess, in adolescence to see that they’re very self focused. One of the pitfalls I see when parents are trying to navigate this adolescent stage is taking some of those changes personally. You know, if your child no longer, um, wants to read books that you once read together, or [00:05:00] maybe you used to like to go to the football and all of a sudden they don’t like sport, or perhaps you all went to church as a family and they are no longer interested.

[00:05:07] Marie: It can feel really wounding. It can feel really dismissive. I can even make you think, Uh, you’re being judged. All of a sudden they’ve changed. They’re no longer that young, cute, sweet kid. How you handle that can really form the foundation for your relationship moving forward. So being very careful not to criticise their changes, not to say things like, but you always used to come with us.

[00:05:34] Marie: That’s really kind of judgy and critical and it’s not inviting connection. Uh, saying things like, you never have time for us anymore, again, isn’t really helpful. So we want to make sure that you’re handling those conversations in a helpful way. And I’ll talk a little bit about that in a moment. It can be really helpful during this time to show interest in their hobbies and interests.

[00:05:55] Marie: Well, tell me more about that or what’s happening or what made you question those [00:06:00] things. Curiously, not critically and maybe not too intensely because they are more susceptible to feeling criticised. We see across that age bracket, you know, that adolescent period that there is an increased I guess sensitivity to being, um, to feeling criticised often from parents, but sometimes teachers and other authority figures.

[00:06:23] Marie: So being really careful not to criticise or judge and to be really genuine and curious. One of my favorite analogies to share with parents in my workshops is this idea of moving from manager to consultant. And I think it can be really helpful in this, uh, for this question. When they’re young, they need you really involved in their life.

[00:06:44] Marie: Again, they’re probably not super interested in your, all the things that you do, but they’re very, um, focused on you. They might want you to drop them off at the school gate. Maybe they don’t even want to go to school. Cause they just want to like hug you and be around you. And they want to watch movies with you and read books with you and play with you.

[00:06:59] Marie: [00:07:00] And maybe almost to the point where they’re, they’re annoying and nagging, like let’s play, let’s do this. Let’s read. What are you doing? What are you watching? And somewhere around end of primary school, start of high school. They fire you from that role as manager. And it’s, imagine going to work one day and you know, you go into your offers, maybe you catch the lift up to the floor that you’re working on.

[00:07:24] Marie: Your boss is you down and says, thank you for coming. Uh, your job has been made redundant. And now some people can handle that with some maybe very unhelpful responses. They might say stuff this. I don’t need this job anyway. Good riddance to you all and storm out. And some might be like, no, not today. This is unfair dismissal.

[00:07:48] Marie: And they spend years in litigation fighting that unfair dismissal claim. Neither of those approaches is super helpful. What we want is to get hide back as a consultant. [00:08:00] And so for parents, this can happen gradually over time. Maybe they spend less and less time with you. Um, what used to be a fun kind of family weekend might be now on, uh, kind of want to stay back home and, and watch this thing on Netflix or hang out with friends, or it might happen really quite abruptly.

[00:08:20] Marie: All of a sudden they’re just like, Nope. Not interested. And that can be really painful for parents. So it’s important to recognise your response to that and how to get hired back as the consultant. Now, this is crucial for the relationship that you have with them, but also for their ongoing development.

[00:08:39] Marie: So they can learn that consultant role is more of a mentor, a teacher, a support rather than a dictator or manager or micromanaging. So we really want to step up. You know, it’s side by side and maybe even a little bit back. It’s letting them take the lead. Uh, family rules are more collaborative.

[00:08:59] Marie: [00:09:00] Consequences are discussed. Things are more conversational and they’re starting to develop their own ways of handling conflict, of navigating life, of negotiating things based on how they observe the situation. So this is really key. It’s really, really hard for them to be what they can’t see. So if you’re wanting your child to have empathy, you have to show them empathy.

[00:09:28] Marie: Empathy is not saying to them, how do you think it made your brother feel when you did that? Empathy is saying, Oh, it looks like you had a tough day. You seem really disappointed that you didn’t get the results you wanted. You got held back from class. That must feel really unfair when you’re actually such a good student.

[00:09:46] Marie: It’s empathising with their feeling. Now, empathy does not mean you agree with the situation. It doesn’t mean that you endorse it or approve of it. It’s that you can understand based on [00:10:00] their observation, their interpretation or their experience that you can see what that would feel like. So that’s really, really important as part of that consultant role.

[00:10:10] Marie: It’s actually really important across the whole developmental, the whole lifespan, really from babies to. Partners to everything, but in that teenage bracket, it’s going to test that a little bit more because they will be pushing back. They might be taking some more risks. They might be testing boundaries.

[00:10:28] Marie: And so how you have those conversations from a place of empathy is really, really important. So think about what kind of values you want, what kind of role model you want to be and what kind of behaviors you want them to learn, because if they’re not receiving that. They can’t give it. They can’t be honest if they’re not seeing honesty from you.

[00:10:50] Marie: They can’t take accountability and responsibility if they haven’t seen that, if they don’t have the language for it, if they haven’t seen or heard someone say to them, Hey, you [00:11:00] How I handled that situation was not very great. I actually really want to say, I’m sorry. I’m still disappointed in this behavior.

[00:11:06] Marie: You know, insert the behavior here, but how I handled that was not okay. That’s teaching them accountability is actually by being accountable yourself. So this kind of neatly goes into my second point. Oh, the second topic I wanted to discuss was effective communication without emotional pressure. Bear with me, let me explain this.

[00:11:28] Marie: Terry Riehl, a renowned couples, families, relationship expert. He has some really great things and he’s the founder of Relational Life Therapy. There’s some really great content coming out from his stuff and some really good books and things on his website. He talks about this idea about angry pursuit is a dysfunctional relational stance.

[00:11:49] Marie: Okay, so he calls Angry Pursuit an oxymoron. Angry Pursuit will never get you more of what you want. You will never motivate someone to get closer to you by [00:12:00] complaining about how distant they are. It’s just not going to work. And this is He just phrases it so beautifully. And this is really when you’re using guilt or maybe for lack of a better word, things like emotional blackmail to try and get your needs met.

[00:12:18] Marie: It could be saying things like, you never show an interest in me. Okay, that’s using anger or guilt. It’s saying things like, you’re always on your phone. Okay, those things are actually trying to bring someone closer to you, but you’re using anger or you’re using shame or criticism and that’s not going to work.

[00:12:40] Marie: Same applies for most relationships, but thinking about this with a teenager. Anger, Coming at it from that anger pursuit is not going to get you connection. It just won’t. So instead, it’s important to try and have more open ended questions [00:13:00] or actually saying what you want more of. I really want to spend some time with you.

[00:13:05] Marie: I feel quite disconnected when you’re on your device. Could we do something together? I want to, I want to share with you some parts of my life before you came along, before I met your mother, father, partner, whatever. Okay. So I want to give you another example about this angry pursuit. So remember that this, this behavior, it’s, it’s counterproductive.

[00:13:26] Marie: It’s, it’s often motivated or typically motivated by desire for closeness or maybe recognition, but it pushes the, The other person away and it can create more distance than closeness. So it’s really important to remember that and to notice when you do this, because we all do it. Okay. Guaranteed. So trying to find where your, where this shows up for you and how you might want to do it differently.

[00:13:53] Marie: So I want to give you an example of a bit more detail of how this might look. So imagine that you feel disconnected from your, from [00:14:00] your children. Maybe they’ve recently, or, or child, I’ll just say father and daughter. Imagine you’re a father who feels disconnected from his daughter. She’s recently started high school.

[00:14:11] Marie: And is spending more time with her friends, um, going to their houses, maybe there’s afterschool or extracurricular activities. And the um, It leads her to spend less time at home. A father might feel her sidelined and might confront her after she misses several family dinners by saying something like You just don’t care about this family anymore.

[00:14:32] Marie: You’re always out with your friends. It’s like we don’t even exist to you Okay, the desire there is for connection or closeness or to repair a feeling of disconnection But that response will not get you closer. So you can see that by expressing that loneliness or that disconnection, desire for more time together, it eventually creates an environment of shame and defensiveness for your daughter.

[00:14:57] Marie: So instead [00:15:00] of understanding her father’s needs for connection, she might feel unfairly criticised and withdraw even further, avoiding family time to escape. the conflict and negative emotions at home. So the attempt to connect actually pushes them away. And then that cycle continues. Might be a follow up a few weeks later.

[00:15:24] Marie: So nice of you to finally grace us with your presence. And she might think, well, why would I bother? When every time I spend time with you, I’m feeling criticised. And I hear it. Parents will say, well, if you just spend time with us, we wouldn’t have to, but that’s not going to work. It just It won’t work. So this reaction will keep deepening that divide between you.

[00:15:46] Marie: So what to do instead? This, this is tricky and it might be that in the situation, in the moment, this is harder to do. So first is to breathe and keep an eye on [00:16:00] your own reactivity. And then coming at it with I statements, not, I feel upset when you, no, no, no, none of that. I would like to spend time with you.

[00:16:12] Marie: I feel really disconnected from you now that you’ve started school. I see that you’ve got a boyfriend, a job, girlfriends, friends, and there’s so much going on for you, and I’m feeling a little left out. It’d be great if we could find something to do together. And remember, as the consultant, these are conversations that are collaborative.

[00:16:33] Marie: I’d like to spend some more time together. What would be something we could do? Or if it’s a teenager, who’s just really not interested in stuff, maybe saying what’s the least boring activity that you can come up with. Okay. So you have a chat about that. Um, maybe it’s something really, uh, fixed in your calendar and really regular.

[00:16:51] Marie: Perhaps you have a date night where you say, okay, once a month on a Friday night or Saturday, you can pick the [00:17:00] activity. This is the budget and we can do something that you like. This would give you a chance to connect. To understand their interests, but also if you’re teaching them about money or budgeting or planning and organising, they can learn some of those things as well.

[00:17:18] Marie: And that’s really good even for, for younger kids, but starting to teach them through experience. Okay. We have, let’s say 50 once a month, you get to choose what you want to do. And if they say, we want to go to the movies. Okay, great. How do you find out when the movies are? What movie do you want to see?

[00:17:33] Marie: Can you book the ticket? Okay. Does that factor in popcorn or do we need to bring our own snacks or do we go to the drive in so we can bring our own food? So this actually can become a conversation piece and it’s a really good chance to start to teach them different tools and skills, but also show them that you value.

[00:17:50] Marie: their interests, and that your job as a parent, it’s for them. It’s not the other way around. They aren’t there to meet your needs. [00:18:00] They’re not there to make you happy or make you feel a certain way. It’s really hard to kind of sit with. But it’s the reality. They’re not there for you. And so doing things for them that they’re interested in showing an interest in them.

[00:18:17] Marie: Remember they also can’t be what they can’t see. So you showing an interest in their hobbies, their interests, asking them insightful questions, not being judgmental, gives them the toolkit, the language to one day ask those questions back. It might not be to you maybe as adults, but it might be to their future kids or to their friends or to their younger siblings.

[00:18:38] Marie: So they get to learn that language by experiencing it from you using I statements and express how you feel. It could be sometimes I feel a bit left out when we don’t get a time, we don’t get time to chat. Maybe we could spend some time each week to just catch up. Very different to saying you never spend time with me anymore.

[00:18:56] Marie: Okay. Remember the request is very different [00:19:00] when it comes from that. authentic, more vulnerable place, but not so much that you’re placing burden on them. So you don’t want to say, I feel so left out now that you’re a teenager and I don’t know what to do with myself. And I was a stay at home parent for years and they don’t need that much background.

[00:19:18] Marie: If that’s how you feel, that’s totally valid. You can go speak to a co parent, a friend, a sibling, a psychologist, therapist, family therapist, about that. They just need to know a little bit. I feel left out and we don’t get to spend time together. I don’t know much about your world. I’d like to find a way to do that different.

[00:19:38] Marie: And if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, oh my god, there, I’ve got this wrong. That’s okay. Maybe tell them, hey, I saw this thing today or I heard this thing that made me think there’s some room to do things different in our relationship. Can I talk to you about it sometime? Or can I talk to you later about a couple of things that have been on my mind?[00:20:00] 

[00:20:00] Marie: Are you sharing that with them authentically? Give them language and tools to be able to do it back. So you’re saying, hey, there’s some room for improvement here. And if they say, well, how did you learn that? You can say, I was listening to a podcast. I was watching a video. I looked at a blog post. I read a book, you know, whatever, wherever you got that idea from share that.

[00:20:22] Marie: So I did that because. I’m feeling that there’s a disconnection in our relationship, and I didn’t want to get it wrong, or I wanted to do it different or better. You’re showing that they’re important, that you’re open to learning new things. You’re role modeling some really good positive help seeking behavior, so you’re normalising the use of these kinds of platforms for emotional growth or emotional development, and I think that’s a really good thing.

[00:20:47] Marie: And the last bit I want to share is trying not to fix it. I remember in your Question you ask, I have all this life experience. If only they would just listen. And I [00:21:00] say that a lot from parents. When I was sharing some ideas about this podcast episode with a friend of mine, she was like, yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:06] Marie: If she would just listen to me, she would not have a bad day in her life. And that’s kind of funny. And I think she understood the irony in that because we can’t control people like that. And especially when they are teenagers and they’re individuating, the developing their autonomy. They need to make mistakes and they need to learn things on their own.

[00:21:27] Marie: But more importantly, if we’re focusing on the relationship and on connection, we feel connected when we’re validated, heard, heard. empathised with and understood. So if your teen is saying things to you and you’re getting comments like, okay, just don’t listen to me, or you don’t understand, or what do you know you’re old, take a breath.

[00:21:50] Marie: Notice that you might be feeling stuff, right? Angry, rejected, confused, pop that aside for a moment. They’re telling you something there. They’re telling you, [00:22:00] I don’t feel heard. I don’t feel understood, but they don’t have the language for it yet. So listen twice, three times, four times as much as you talk.

[00:22:10] Marie: When you give advice unsolicited or poorly timed, they might hear you’re not smart enough to work this out. I don’t trust you. You’re incompetent. They might feel criticised. They’re extra sensitive to feelings of criticism at this age. You know, I think, and I have one, um, that comes up a lot where. Someone might be trying to learn something new, technology or device.

[00:22:38] Marie: And someone just comes across their shoulder and is like, Oh, let me just do that for you. That’s not helpful. They feel like, well, don’t you think I can do it? I could have figured it out on my own. You know, all of those sorts of things. It’s really not helpful. So while your intention is great, trying to fix it and offering solutions.

[00:22:58] Marie: It’s, it’s [00:23:00] often not well received by anybody really, but teenagers in particular are sensitive to feeling criticised as a result. But most of us are. I know if I say, you know, I applied for a job and I didn’t get it, or I’m really struggling with recruitment at the moment and someone makes a comment like, Oh, have you thought of looking up SEEK?

[00:23:18] Marie: I think, yeah, of course I have. I mean, That’s so obvious. Do you think I didn’t think of that? And then I get really anxious or overwhelmed thinking they’re not listening. They’re not understanding that I’m asking questions or holding space for me. And I shut down and over time, I’d be less likely to share things with that person.

[00:23:39] Marie: So try not to fix it. And if you’re really struggling, think of the role of the consultant. Your job’s not to fix the problem. Your job is to maintain the relationship and teach them what they need to know. And sometimes that’s through experience, but that connection comes from being [00:24:00] heard and understood and sometimes asking them, Hmm, what do you think we could do here or what have you already tried?

[00:24:08] Marie: And then if appropriate, right at the end, then say, look, I’ve got some ideas of what might be helpful. Could I share them with you? Don’t lead with that because that will just shut off the conversation. I hope you found that helpful. , I go into a lot of those issues and much more in my connected teens program, in this course, I have brought together some of my. I’ve brought together years of my work with families.

[00:24:36] Marie: It’s the course that I wish every parent did before, , they sent their kids to therapy or when they had teenagers, , talk about understanding your values, how you were parented and how that impacts your parenting and some of these common issues that parents face. So check it out. [00:25:00]