[00:00:00] What, if everything you thought you knew about addiction was wrong. What if addiction isn’t about weakness or disease, but about coping with life stresses and traumas. In this episode, I explore some common myths and misconceptions about addiction. I chat with Tara Hurston, a passionate psychologist, working with addiction and substance use. Tara’s journey into the world of addiction.

Treatment began in a unique way. She found herself bridging the gap between the naughty kids and teachers during her school years. Now, she uses her experiences to challenge societal misconceptions and provide a real practical advice for managing substance use. In this episode, Tara, share some insights on understanding the true drivers behind addictive behaviors, navigating social pressures around alcohol and setting healthy boundaries. We also have a chat of this new movement or emerging movement called sober, curious, and how younger generations are redefining their relationships with [00:01:00] alcohol. And for those navigating the dating scene. Tara offers some invaluable tips on sober dating, exploring how to build authentic connections without relying on substances. If you’re ready to rethink everything you know about addiction and gain some practical strategies for healthier habits and relationships, you don’t want to miss this episode. I’m your host Moravia caucus.

And if you’ve got a question about family, career, love, friendships, or anything in between, I’m here to help coming to you from the lens of the Bunnarong and Waranjari people, let’s explore some of life’s messiness, one conversation at a time.

Let us dive into the conversation with Tara.

Marie: Hello, and welcome to this complex life today. I have with me Tara Herster, and we’re talking about all things, alcohol, substances, drugs, , welcome to the podcast, Tara.

Tara: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Marie: So you have a specialty or a special interest in working with alcohol and other drugs.

Can you share with listeners a little bit about who you are [00:02:00] and how you got to this, uh, this part of your career?

Tara: Yes, it’s a very common question that I’m asked. Why addiction? And, uh, it’s interesting because as, as a psychologist, there are some areas of mental health that, uh, I guess considered a little bit more sexy, right?

Places, uh, things like anxiety or depression, or maybe eating disorders, those sorts of things are, uh, are, uh, usually where clinicians tend to kind of head towards in their career. Whereas for me, this is, this is, uh, it’s, I find it really funny to be answering it like this, but the universe just decided that I was going to work in addiction before I had a say in the matter.

Um, so, uh, back when I was in high school, I was this really interesting bridge between the naughty kids and the teachers. because I actually used to [00:03:00] smoke. So I, uh, when I was in year six, I heard that smoking stunted your growth and I was extremely tall and bullied for being so tall. And so I thought, okay, well, I found a potential solution here.

If I smoke, then it’ll stop this problem. And, uh, Hooray for fixing a problem. So when I was in high school, I used to hang around with the smokers, which usually were, you know, quote unquote, the naughty kids. And, but I also really loved learning and I loved interacting with the teachers. So that meant that I was, yeah, this really weird bridge and I saw that when I was in high school, that I had this really unique ability to communicate to the quote unquote naughty kids about how to experiment on the teachers and help them to, uh, Really kind of overcome the barriers that were getting in the way of them being able to get the best out of school.

So there was this one [00:04:00] young boy who, when I was in year 9 he was in year 7, and he was, you know, having after school detentions, suspensions, lunchtime detentions. And as we were talking through, you know, what’s going on here. Cause I, the teachers don’t hate me. So what are you doing? That is impacting on this.

And we played some little experiments, uh, with the teachers and within sort of six months, he had no suspensions, no afterschool detentions, and only one lunchtime detention a week. And when I realized that I had that skill to do this without training, when I was sort of thinking about what do I want to be when I grow up, I thought, well, imagine what I could do with training.

So that’s how I went down the psychology route. But again, when I was in sort of my fifth year of psychology, I was literally handed a position for, uh, working in an inpatient psychiatric hospital [00:05:00] doing their addiction treatment program. And the, the story of how all that came to be, I’m more than happy to share if you’re interested, though, it was really quite a bizarre sort of situation.

And within about three weeks of working in that role, I realized that not only was I part of the problem. But I also had no idea what, what I thought I knew about addiction was completely false and that I had been leaning into societal views of what addiction is and what it means to be someone living with addiction and that they were all completely false.

So the first thing that I saw is that addiction is not an illness. It’s not a weakness. It’s not a disease. It is something that People have learned how to most effectively and most efficiently solve the problem of their experience, right? Whether it’s [00:06:00] stress or trauma or sleep or embarrassment or excitement, whatever big feeling it is, they’re using a drug or an alcohol or a behavior.

So gambling, sex, porn, food, whatever it happens to be. They’re using that to cope and really that comes from a lack of living skills and coping skills that are taught or not taught in school and in families that sort of don’t have that as a, as a major focus. And once I realized that I thought, Oh, okay. I, the way that I overcame my addiction wasn’t actually because I’m quote unquote better than someone.

It’s because I was actually ready at that time and I understood the stages of change. I understood how all of that works and yeah, I just, I fell in love. With addiction treatment. So yeah, my mission really is to make addiction treatment sexy.

Marie: I love that. [00:07:00] And I love the, um, the solution you came up with around the smoking, because in the, the knowledge I have, which is not a specialty in, in addictions is people often, they don’t intend to get addicted.

That’s it’s often, like you said, to solve a problem or it serves a function in some way and, and trying to understand what that is, is such a big part of. Whatever the support is going to look like moving forward.

Tara: Absolutely. I always talk about it in terms of what’s the driver behind the behavior. If you understand what the driver is, then you can explore other alternative options.

For example, quite often people will be out in summer, right? People will be out there, you know, at the beach and they’re in the sun and then they’re having some drinks. And they don’t realize that they’re actually reaching for another beer or another, whatever it is, because they’re actually thirsty.

So if you just had some water, if you go one for one, [00:08:00] then quite often you won’t end up drinking as much alcohol because you’re thirsty. First management is, is, is up to scratch. And, uh, and so again, like what’s the drive behind the behavior if we’re coming home from work and we’re super stressed out and we head straight for the fridge or the bar inside, you know, inside the apartment or the house and we pour a drink.

What’s the driver behind behavior? Well, the driver behind the behavior is I’m feeling stressed and I’d like to relax. So what are some other alternative relaxation strategies that we can do? Or what are some problem solving that we can do during the day to manage the day in a more effective way? So we’re not actually coming home so stressed, right?

So rather than just, you know, Uh, using the short term benefits of a mood altering substance or behavior, we want to try to understand what’s actually driving the need for that mood altering substance or behavior, and then work our way [00:09:00] backwards.

Marie: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. You, you say that because I did an interview with, uh, Dr.

Lucy around, um, mindful eating and it was a very similar type of conversation around. It’s not as easy to just say, Oh, we’ll just snack on carrots and celery and hummus. It is actually figuring out what, what’s that serving in terms of comfort or, or pleasure or whatever. So it’s really sort of that basic building block of, we need to know what function it serves.

Tara: Absolutely. For me, when it comes to food, it’s usually the, well, really when it comes to anything, and I don’t like using a hundred percent words here. However, I am going to use one today. Anytime we are engaging in something that we don’t necessarily want to do, though we just find ourselves doing it in a mindless way, it’s because of halt.

So halt in the, uh, in the literature, H is different to HALT in Tara world. So HALT in the literature [00:10:00] is hungry, angry, lonely, tired. However, I actually expand that out. So in Tara world, H stands for hungry, hydrated, health. So are we hungry? Are we thirsty? Or are we feeling under the weather? A is angry or big emotions.

Whether it’s excitement, excitement, sadness. Whatever it happens to be, any kind of big emotion is going to bring about, uh, uh, an unhelpful choice if we don’t have a helpful choice as a, as a, as a focus. L stands for lonely or bored. Cause when we’re bored, that’s me, I will tend to snack. I’ll be like, I kind of turn into Homer, you know, it just, it really can be the time.

And it’s really funny because I’ll be halfway through, you know, a packet of chips and go, hang on a second, [00:11:00] what is happening? It’s almost like there’s a veil that comes over you and you don’t even realize that you’re doing it. And then you go, Oh, hang on. Right. So that’s when we become mindful. Yeah. Cool.

When we have those, Oh, hang on. What’s happening here? Uh, then we’ve got tea, which is tired. I haven’t expanded on tea yet though. Yes. So when we’re tired, when we’re bored, when we’re lonely, when we’re hungry, if we’re thirsty or if we’re unwell, or if we’re experiencing any form of big emotions, then that’s when we tend to do the quote unquote unhelpful choice because when our brain is looking for.

The quickest way to go from distress to comfort. And that’s because back in the UGG UGG days, when we had saber toothed tigers trying to kill us at our cave, if we were cold, we could die. If we were hungry, we could die. If we were kicked out of our group, we could die, right? So literal, literal death [00:12:00] could come from what we experience every day in terms of our, our comfort levels, right?

You know, uh, me, me experiencing a sensation of thirst. Now my brain can, can sort of change that to think, holy crap, we’re going to die. So we need to go and figure that out quickly. And then when you’re really hot and you have a drink and then you feel so good about it, that’s because the brain has, has dumped a whole heap of dopamine into into our brain.

And it says, Hey, What you did just saved your life. So well done. Let’s remember that. Let’s do it again. Next time we feel uncomfortable and we’ll be okay. So the same is said for drug use, alcohol use, gambling, sex, porn, whatever it happens to be, it releases the same chemicals into our brain. So our brain believes that when we’re doing these things, we’re actually [00:13:00] saving a life.

And that’s part of where we need to move away from this shame based, fear based narrative of, well, just get your shit together. No, hang on a second. Would you tell someone that was dying of thirst not to drink the, you know, like it makes sense that someone who’s dying of thirst would drink from fetid water, of course, because you either drink that or you don’t drink it.

And If you drink it, at least you’ve got a chance that you’ll survive, right?

Marie: Yeah. She uses the same analogy, but she added P in front of it. So she calls it fault and has the first P as pain.

Tara: Ooh, I love that.

Marie: So she calls it P halt or fault. And she, they have all the same, um, you know, the other letters, H A L T, and then has the pain, which is still, I guess, might be under the feelings bit, but very specifically like pain.

Tara: Brilliant. So

Marie: I might, I might pop a link to that in the show notes if people find that they might switch between different coping strategies. [00:14:00] So when we’ve been talking about addiction, but if we talk about more generally, um, I want to talk a bit more about alcohol. I think that’s the most, um, obvious one that I encounter in my work.

And it’s not about people who necessarily feel like they’ve got an addiction and they can’t stop, but they do use it in a way that. It’s not what they would like to be doing. Um, so, you know, and I find this really tricky. Like whenever I run training around, I do mental health first day training and we hit the substances section.

This is one of the most difficult ones along with eating disorders, because some of the ways that we celebrate commiserate, socialize is. Around alcohol or food. And so how do we start to, you know, how can somebody, if they want to reduce their drinking, for example, navigate that when the social expectations in our context here is that we drink a lot of alcohol and people will ask comments like, Oh, what are you pregnant?

And if [00:15:00] you’re a guy, then they’re like, Oh, what’s wrong with you? Like there’s, there’s a lot of stigma there around not drinking.

Tara: Absolutely. I feel like there was even a prime minister once that said, you know, you can’t, you can’t, um, you can’t trust someone who doesn’t drink, you know? And it, yeah, it’s, it’s bananas.

It’s, it really is a big part of Australian culture and it’s a problem. It’s a problem. The exciting thing is that there really is this sober curious That’s starting to work its way into Australian culture. And it does seem to be coming from the younger generation that they’re sort of starting to question this.

They’re starting to question, well, hold on a minute. Do I have to drink alcohol just to be cool? Like really, you know, that it doesn’t, it doesn’t make sense to some people. And so they’re questioning this though. If we’re, if we’re thinking [00:16:00] about any kind of change, anytime we are wanting to make a change in our life, it can feel really uncomfortable.

And by definition, if it feels uncomfortable, it’s outside your comfort zone. So that means that our brain will think we’re about to die. It’s very dramatic. Our brain is very dramatic. Bless this little heart. So what we need to be thinking about is first off. All right. So what are we actually worried about?

Right? Are we worried about being ostracized from our friendship circle? Are we worried about being judged? Are we worried about losing the job? Are we like, what are we actually worried about? And when we understand what we’re worried about, then we can start to question that and go, okay, well, if I’m worried about getting kicked out of my friendship circle, Because I’m choosing not to drink, are these really the people I want to be spending time with?

Right? Like we can actually kind of go, hold on a second. If my [00:17:00] friendship circle is going to challenge me to such an extent because of a choice that I’m making for my wellbeing, are they really my friends? Right? And, and I, I can’t answer that question. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s your question to answer.

So these are some of the things that we can do, right? If, if we’re worried that, uh, you know, I’ve had clients who have said, you know, my, my boss expects me to go out for boozy lunches with them every, you know, every month when we’re talking about whatever it happens to be, and how am I going to handle that?

And. There are multiple ways to handle that in that sort of situation. You can just simply say, you know what I appreciate. I’m just not drinking today. Oh, why not? I just don’t really feel like it. Oh, no, you’ve got to have one. I really don’t feel like it. And then just divert the conversation to whatever the meeting was about.

Or we can do little [00:18:00] white lies. Oh, I’ve got antibiotics. Yeah, it’s really shit. Hey, and then, oh, okay, done, right? Like it’s done. We don’t have to, we don’t have to tell anybody anything. However, if we want to tell somebody something, we can tell little white lies. They’re really handy. Uh, though, again, we can look at, all right, well, who am I spending time with?

How am I spending that time with them? And is there a potential alternative way of spending time with them? So if, you know, your friendship circle is all about getting on the booze and, you know, dancing on tables, then maybe what we do is we go for a hike. Or we go to, I don’t know, something like we do something different or at a different time of day or at a different location that helps to promote permission to engage differently and Yeah, that’s, that’s kind of how [00:19:00] I, I sort of help people to think about it is firstly question, what are we worried about?

And then actually explore that further. And then in terms of management, you can either look at changing the people you spend time with, changing how you spend time with them, changing where you spend time with them, all the white lies.

Marie: Yeah, I love that. And the changing location or activity seems to be, um, something that some people, it might not occur to them, um, to sort of suggest.

Like if it’s, oh, we always did pub Friday night drinks. It’s like, well, just say I’m doing a 8 a. m. Stand up paddle boarding thing on Saturday. Do you want to come to that? It’s, it’s. And I find, um, some of the people that struggle with this the most do have some underlying social anxiety. And so this tends to mask or is a tool to navigate some of those settings.

So some of the work is then in trying to find a way to keep connection. Without it being so anxiety [00:20:00] provoking. So it might be as simple as actually having to say in a text message, I can’t make Friday night drinks. Can we, can I see you Saturday? Like how to script it in a way that feels authentic. And if you’re not drinking, I found, I love all your suggestions.

And I’ve added to that for some people just saying, it just doesn’t agree with me. Like, cause people, I think they get confronted, like, Oh, if you’re not drinking, are you judging my behavior or are you judging me for this? So then it becomes a bit of a threat to their something.

Tara: It becomes a moral decision and really, we don’t need to be bringing morals into, into this kind of topic, right?

Like everybody, it’s the same as saying, I don’t want to wear shorts. Well, are we actually going to get into an argument about me not wanting to wear shorts? Like that, this, this conversation would not go any further [00:21:00] if we were talking about shorts. Uh, yeah, we don’t need to, it doesn’t need to be made into a big deal.

And quite often the way that we interact with that discussion impacts on the way that it’s received by others and how other people interact with that discussion. So for example, I, , you know, so I’m in recovery from cigarettes. I’ve been in full recovery for, over a decade. And I have completely redefined the nature of my relationship with, with cigarettes, with substances, with my interaction with stress and distress, all of those things. I’ve also completely redefined the nature of my relationship with my identity. It’s not that I’m not a smoker.

It’s just that that doesn’t act like it doesn’t, it’s just not like, I don’t think about like, I don’t care. It doesn’t, it doesn’t bring up anything for me. So if someone comes to me and [00:22:00] says, Oh, hey, do you want a cigarette? I’m like, no, thanks. I’m good. You know, like, and, and they are, okay, cool. You know, like it’s, it, it doesn’t have to be a, a big deal, but it’s, Oh no, you know, I quit smoking like 10 years ago and I just, I really can’t, you know, I’d really prefer if you didn’t smoke around me, please.

Can you go over there? Cause that really stinks. Like it becomes this big deal. Right. , \ , throughout my life, really, I interestingly have not really. enjoyed having people in my personal life that engage in drug use. And, , for me, whenever I had friends in my sort of early twenties who would use drugs in a recreational way, I was very clear that you don’t do them around me, or if you are going to do that, I’m going to leave.

Because I don’t want to be around that. And there were the majority of my friends who were [00:23:00] my friends, they agreed and understood and respected my, my wishes around that. And if there was going to be a situation where drugs were going to be there, they’d tell me ahead of time and say, do you actually want to come to this?

Because I think what’s his name is going to bring in whatever. Do you want to come? And I’d be like, thanks for letting me know. I know that’s all right. You guys go and have fun. Again, it’s not a big deal. It’s just don’t do drugs around Tara, right? Like that, that’s just kind of how it was. And whoever, when there was ever a situation where people went against that, and there were, there were two situations I can recall from my early twenties where, where a really close friend, uh, they only ever did it once.

The two really close friends, used drugs or drugs were being used around me. And I was very clear about my boundaries. I communicated effectively. I communicated very assertively and I stated that this, this was not going to happen again. [00:24:00] If it was, and I just don’t like, we’re not, we’re not compatible and that’s okay.

It’s not you’re a bad person. It’s this is not what I want in my life. And I trusted that you, you understood that. And now we’re talking about a breach of trust rather than you use drugs and you’re a bad person. Right. So again, like we, the, the only way for me to be able to do that was to understand what was I worried about.

And if, if I, if I had been worried about losing a friend, it would have been very hard for me to have said, Hey, that’s my boundary and you just crossed it. And that’s not cool. And if this is going to continue, I’m going to move away. I wasn’t worried about losing a friend because that boundary for me was really important.

So it’s about understanding what are we worried about? How can we overcome that worry so that you can start making decisions for yourself based on your values?

Marie: Yeah. That’s such a beautiful example. And I think it’ll help listeners [00:25:00] understand how tricky it can be and the multiple bits involved of setting boundaries, how to communicate them and being okay with there will be consequences.

We can’t have boundaries without disappointing someone

and that’s okay.

Tara: Absolutely. And we can also feel yuck enforcing our own boundaries. That’s okay too. . Because these days yuck doesn’t equal death. Back in the Ugg Ugg days, yuck could have equaled death because if I was in my group or clan or mob then and I didn’t want to go along with what they were doing and I was out on my own, I could have been eaten so much.

And I don’t get to share in the food and the spoils of what they’ve found on their, you know, little trips out, you know, hunting and gathering. Right. So, so when we think about the way that the brain works, it makes sense that all of these things are really scary, right? Because they’re, From our brains, [00:26:00] evolutionary perspective, they literally are life and death situations.

And it takes a lot of work and practice and building a sense of self to be able to go, you know what, actually I don’t live in the days and I can engage in life in, in, on my own terms. And I can, uh, build new friendships and new connections in more helpful and healthy ways. When I am doing the things that are exciting to me.

Marie: This is, um, that’s some really good stuff for people. You already know quite well how to navigate that. How would we have a conversation around, you know, when you’re dating, um, people, you know, some people struggle to go on a date or, uh, be physically intimate without the use of substances. How can we start to explore?

What alternatives might be, and I’m thinking in particular, the physical intimacy side, the stories I hear a lot around regret, not remembering it, not feeling [00:27:00] pleasure. Um, you know, there’s, there’s not a, there’s, there’s impact and consequence to, to being substance affected when dating. So can you share a little bit about how people might navigate that?

Tara: A lot of those problems that you shared can quite often come as a result of the substance. use in and around the dating experience. And, uh, I think, okay, I love fries. FRIES is an acronym. It was created by Planned Parenthood in America and it was specifically designed around sexual consent. However, I actually, at the Tara Clinic, there’s an entire I think there’s like three or four sessions where we go through FRIES in terms of specifically looking at how we interact with our choices in our life.

[00:28:00] So all choices. So FRIES stands for freely given, which means that I’m not coerced or pushed into a decision. R means reversible. So at any point I can change my mind. I is informed, which means I know the ins and outs of what I’m agreeing to. E is enthusiastic, which is a hell yeah, rather than the absence of a no.

And then S is specific. So I’m agreeing to this specific thing, but that doesn’t mean that I’m automatically agreeing to this next thing. Right. And so when we think about having a, an underpinning of fries, that means that we can. We have the, we, we have rights and we have responsibilities in life. We have the right to safety.

We have the right to, you know, uh, uh, to a lot of things with those rights come responsibilities. So it’s our responsibility to communicate our [00:29:00] needs. It’s our responsibilities to ask for, you know, things. It’s our responsibility to, uh, you know, to say no when we want to say no. Again, this is important to sort of point out that if there is any kind of violence or aggression or domestic violence or family violence, those sorts of things, it’s Uh, this is not about victim shaming because it is very hard to say no.

There we’ve got fight, flight, freeze, faint, fawn, and it is very normal, natural and healthy to freeze in situations and to, to not be able to say no, you know, I, myself am an adult survivor of, of sexual assault. So I understand what it’s like to be in that situation. So, uh, you know, it’s important to remember that while we have responsibilities, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to be the only way of, of, of leaning on the outcome of [00:30:00] these situations, but just for the topic of sober dating, right?

So how do we do that? Well, if that is something that we want to do. We actually need to kind of be honest with ourself about it and therefore communicate that outwardly. And so we can do that in terms of, you know, setting up our, uh, if I think about, you know, um, dating apps or things like that, which is quite often where, where A lot of people meet for the first time is through different dating apps.

If we’re setting up our profile with, you know, drinks, photos, and party photos, and in our little blog thing, it’s all about like, yeah, Saturday night and blah. Then what we’re putting out is that lifestyle, that style of living. If we want to put out To the world, a different style of living, then it’s important for us to be really, uh, connected to that in In that [00:31:00] framework, right?

So if we’re, you know, we’re health conscious and we’re excited about getting up early on Sunday morning and going for a hike, well, then maybe our photos are like, you know, Sunday morning hikes and swimming at sunset and, you know, all these sorts of things. And then in our, in our bio, we talk about how much we love having them.

Yeah. You know, early sunrise swims on a Sunday morning. And I, I, you know, I can’t remember the last time I had a hangover and you know, all those sorts of things, because we attract what we put out. And if we’re wanting to attract someone with like minded. ness. That’s the technical term. Then, uh, then we need to put out our truth.

So if we’re going out and we’re at the bar or we’re at the club or at the pub and we’re going there with the [00:32:00] intention to meet someone to date, then we’re, we’re, we’re picking from the pool of people who like to go to pubs and clubs and. bars. So it doesn’t mean that you have to be sober, sober, sober, sober though, where we are going with the intention of what we’re wanting to get out of that are going to be the types of people that we connect with.

You know, my own example, I, I was really struggling to kind of find the right person. I was just sort of finding the wrong people back to back. It was just like, what is going on here? This is. quite ridiculous. I feel like I’m pretty good at communicating. I feel like I’m pretty good at, you know, putting out what I, what I’m looking for.

And what I realized was that I, I firstly, I wasn’t being as discerning as I probably could have been on, on the different apps. And then also when I was [00:33:00] out, I probably was, you know, again, not being very discerning about understanding who it was that I was speaking to when I was out and meeting them out.

Uh, and so I met my, my fiancé now. We’ve been together for five years. I, I met him. He sunrise swims at, uh, at the beach that I live. So we both live near the beach. And we were both doing sunrise swims and he was coming up the stairs as I was going down the stairs and we kept passing each other every morning because of our timing.

I’d come straight after the gym and he would be coming back so we would pass each other and we kind of just got to know each other basically high fiving at the steps every day. And over time, we started to swim together and we’re talking. And then once we were sort of talking, then it just kind of blossomed into the relationship.

That’s a really healthy one. So he was doing what excites him. I was doing what excites me because we had [00:34:00] both sort of similar values and similar desires in our life. It, it just kind of flourished. So there, there’s a lot to be said for where you’re going. And what you’re doing can really impact who you bring into your world.

And it wasn’t until I just decided to, I’m just not going to date in terms of like dating, you know, I’m just not going to date. I’m just going to be, I’m just going to live. The moment I started doing that within three weeks, I met Peter.

Marie: So the theme in that, and some of the other things you’re talking about is it’s being it’s authenticity and that takes. That’s, that takes courage because it’s hard, it’s hard to push back or not even push back because it might not be so active with a resistance, but to say, I actually don’t like that stuff.

And if I’m wanting to date a like [00:35:00] minded person, that’s also understanding. A bit about yourself hugely. So if you’re so then without, you know, we don’t want to make people feel like we’re blaming them, but if you’re needing substances or you’re needing alcohol to go on a date, is that an indication that maybe there’s some underlying anxiety that that can be addressed separately, that maybe that person isn’t the right fit?

Like what could that, um, drinking be masking that might already be a little bit of a red flag moving forward.

Tara: And these are really great questions and they’re, they’re questions that I don’t really have the authority to answer because they’re going to be really unique to each individual person. If you’re super excited because you’re like, Oh my God, this person is really hot.

And I’m so excited to go and go on a date. No, my God. Right. And you’re like super pumped the way [00:36:00] that we celebrate the way that we engage in excitement in Australia has been to pop a bottle of champagne. So part of what we can do is we can start to look at what are some other ways that we can celebrate?

What are some other ways that we can be excited about things? Maybe we could. It’s, it’s really funny. The first thing that came to my mind was draw something, you know, so get creative, right? Like maybe do some painting if, if you’re excited and create something or put on some music and sort of bounce around in the apartment or the house.

Uh, there, there are other ways of experiencing excitement. If we’re super freaking nervous and. And maybe it’s for the same reasons, like, oh my god, they’re really hot, like, holy shit, I’m really scared, oh my god, what if they don’t like me? Then we can look at that and go, huh, okay, so where is some self compassion here?

What can we do to help build our self esteem? What can we do to help build [00:37:00] our confidence? What can we do to help build our sense of self? And one of the biggest things that, uh, so back when I was working in inpatient psychiatric hospitals, sometimes I would run the mood groups. And one of the things that I did a lot of the time with people who were living with depression is I would see that they had hunched shoulders, to the front, their chin was down.

They were sort of crunched and sort of folded down, right? So when, when you feel scared, worried, sad, yuck, all those things, what happens is your body will tend to make you smaller and it will pull in like a ball because we’re trying to keep ourselves safe or we’re trying to avoid being noticed. So part of what I did in those groups is I would get everybody to stand up and I would encourage them to [00:38:00] experience their posture as they’re standing and then I would talk them through the steps to build their posture into a more assertive and confident posture.

So the way to do that is to have Both feet flat on the floor with your, all of your toes facing forward. Then you have your hip bones facing forward. You then have your shoulders facing forward and you sort of stretch your spine upwards. So many people say shoulders back. But really, all that’s doing is pushing your boobs out, you know, pushing your chest out that that doesn’t that doesn’t actually bring confidence into our brain that brings.

I need to pop myself up like a, you know, like an ape and be, you know, look how scary I am. Right. It’s not bringing the same feeling. So rather than shoulders back, we just have our shoulders both pointing [00:39:00] in the same direction, and then we stretch. Our spine up. So if, if anyone’s sort of watching, you know, stretch up your spine so that you are long and tall, then we have our ears, eyes, and nose all pointing forward with our chin level to the ground.

So not up or down. Not down, just level. And again, we’re pulling, it’s almost like a string from the top of your head. You’re pulling yourself up. And then I said to people, how do you feel? They were like, Whoa, I feel confident. I feel good. I feel sexy. I feel handsome. I feel like all of these feelings were coming.

And for the whole group, they were like, You know, they were really low release and when we got them into, you know, the, the posture, it changes everything. Another one that’s really great. They talk about a lot in dbt. So that’s dialectical behavior therapy is stick a pen in your, in between your [00:40:00] teeth. Like that.

And it creates a little Mona Lisa smile. So it actually brings about the idea of, yeah. So let, let your, let your lips go. So let your lips relax. Yeah. They’re just like, ah, yeah. And it creates a little Mona Lisa style. It makes you bring a smile to your face. The moment we bring a smile to our face, the moment our brain goes, Oh, we can’t be.

We can’t be upset. Like, you know, bring it on. We’ve got this, right? So little things like this, we use our body to change our mind and then we can do mindfulness practice to use our mind to change our body. And everyone says, Oh, mindfulness doesn’t work for me because you know, I, my mind doesn’t shut up.

And I go, cool. Yeah. I haven’t done it my way. So there’s a five step practice to mindfulness. And we talk so much about this at the Tarot Clinic because it is the most important thing ever. So step one is [00:41:00] focusing on your breath, right? If you want to extrapolate this out to other areas of your life, that’s absolutely fine.

I’ll give you an example in a moment. However, um, one focus on your breath to get distracted. It is inevitable. It is part of the practice of mindfulness. This is what you’re meant to do. Step three, notice that you’ve been distracted and name what it is. So is it a feeling? Is it a thought? Is it a sound? Is it a sensation?

What is it? Step four, make the decision to return to your breath. Step five, follow through by actively focusing on your breath again. Now, if we use this in say anger management, right? Uh, your, or, or conflict management, you’re having a discussion with someone that there’s conflict with. So step one is have the discussion.

Step two, get distracted. [00:42:00] Right? So you’ll be bringing in the dirty laundry or the seat being up or whatever it is, right? That’s just going to happen. Step three, notice that this is happening and name it, right? Like what, what, what’s happening? Am I distracted in terms of I’m not listening or am I distracted in terms of I feel resentful and all of this other stuff is an issue as well?

Then step four is choose To go back to the original topic and then step five is to follow through because deciding and doing are two very different things. When you can do that, you’ve kind of overcome, you’ve basically been able to regain control over your life. Once you can do those five things.

Marie: Yeah.

There’s some real, they’re really helpful. And I think it normalizes the experience. A lot of people have of it doesn’t work for me and my mind’s distracted and it’s like, that’s what it does. Yeah. That’s how it works.

Tara: Yeah, that’s part of the process. If you’re, if you’re wanting to practice mindfulness, distraction is [00:43:00] necessary because otherwise we’re not practicing anything.

So, right? Like it’s, yeah, we, we, we require that in order to practice the following three steps.

Marie: So we’ve given listeners, I mean, you’ve given some really good acronyms and analogies and examples and some strategies. So really value packed episode. If someone’s listening and they’re thinking, I really want to explore my relationship with substances, it might not be in their eyes, uh, an addiction, but it could be that they want to change their relationship.

Where should they start? So is that, you know, normally we think go to a GP or something like that, but do you have resources and anything you mentioned, we can pop in the show notes, but are there like, where can someone start? What’s the first baby step towards getting maybe an understanding or addressing some of their concerns or curiosities?

Tara: Yeah. So [00:44:00] I mean, you know, I have loads of free resources that, that people can explore on my website and, uh, at the tarahclinic. com though, realistically, the very, the most helpful place to start is actually tracking your behavior. So really looking at when and how much and how often and what I tend to be.

doing. And there are certain apps that you can use that, uh, you know, specific to different substances or behaviors. So for example, with cigarettes, it’s my quick buddy. That was from the Australian government. Uh, there’s one for alcohol that I really love though. It was created and it’s for the Australian defense force.

So if you do download the on track, the right mix app, please make sure that you switch off the research. Section so that you don’t skew their results. If you’re not a current or forming seven current or former [00:45:00] serving member of the defense force in Australia, um, Though, yeah, track your behavior, because you can then start to see a pattern.

You can see, oh, okay, it tends to start on a Thursday, it ramps up until Saturday, and then Monday I feel really shit because I’ve been struggling all Sunday and I don’t, I haven’t really experienced a weekend. And addiction doesn’t look like we have portrayed it to look like in the media. Addiction doesn’t mean that you don’t have teeth, or you don’t have a job, or you don’t have, Uh, you know, a home.

No, I have people who are, you know, on the Forbes list, right? Like, I, I, I have this, there’s, there’s, there’s people who are experiencing what I described where Thursday to Sunday is a write off, and then Monday till Tuesday is regret, [00:46:00] and then Wednesday is I’ve got to be productive because I’m not going to do this again, and then Thursday the cycle happens again.

That technically is addiction, though it doesn’t look like it. What everybody thinks it does. So, uh, yeah, track your behavior, just start to have a look at it. And yeah, you know, grab some of the resources if you’re interested to explore things further on, on the website. Though another really great national phone line is the ADIS phone line.

So the alcohol and drug information service phone line, uh, 1 800 250 015. Yeah, they’re great. And they’re available nationwide.

Marie: Wonderful. You can just

Tara: ask them questions.

Marie: Yeah. So I’ll put a link to all of those in the show notes and some of your resources. Um, if people navigate over to your website and I’m looking at it now, which people can’t see because it’s an audio format, but you’ve got some really great free resources, some self help tools, um, on [00:47:00] demand, online courses, like there’s quite a lot that people can access, uh, in a confidential way, so they don’t feel like if they’re feeling uncomfortable to talk to a professional straight away, um, there’s quite a lot that they can start to learn and explore.

On their own.

Tara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like our, our recovery toolkit membership is all about online learning for our programs. And it’s done in a self directed format and you know, it’s really affordable. It’s really accessible. You can jump on there and, and join up at any time. And there’s a 14 day money back guarantee.

So you know, if you get on there and you think, this is shit. just, you know, there’s a 14 day money back guarantee. So that’s, that’s, that’s available for you. Uh, but yeah, I, there’s, there’s a lot of, you don’t have to live the way that you’ve been living. If it’s been a struggle, it doesn’t have to be that way.

And it also doesn’t have to be scary to get some help.

Marie: Yeah, I love that. I had a client recently, Fraser. Um, her experiences were slightly different, but [00:48:00] in a way that said, these things didn’t have the same impact when I was younger. And now that I’m adulting, I’m, I’m recognizing the consequences of my behavior.

It might not be fully destructive, but it’s getting in the way of. The future that I want. And I thought that was really quite a beautiful reflection of, you know, she’s like, I’m not in like heaps of debt or credit card debt or anything like that, but I haven’t saved, but I wanted, or if I want these sorts of things in my life, the trajectory I’m on is not going to get me there.

Tara: Exactly. It’s just about popping on your reality pants, take off your judgment pants. Cause they chafe put on your reality pants. It’s the best place to sit.

Marie: I love that. Thanks so much.

Tara: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.