[00:00:00] Tracy Proud: Whatever we learned about love and parenting and communication, and pretty much most of the human behaviors, we would’ve learned them so early on that we don’t even think that that’s what we believe. 

 

[00:00:17] Marie Vakakis: Have you ever found yourself reacting in a way that catches you off guard, maybe shutting down in an argument, feeling unheard in your relationship, or struggling to express what you need?

 

[00:00:28] Marie Vakakis: Often, these patterns aren’t just random. They don’t come out of nowhere. They are shaped by our past experiences, even the ones we can’t consciously remember. Welcome to this complex life. I’m your host, Marie Vakakis, and this is another episode in a series all around relationships and couples and all that stuff.

 

[00:00:46] Marie Vakakis: And today I’m joined by Tracy. A psychotherapist who helps people recognise and shift these deep-seated patterns. She shares her own journey into therapy, how she found herself working with couples, and why self-awareness is at the heart of meaningful [00:01:00] change. If you’ve ever wondered, why do I react this way, or why does my partner not seem to understand me?

 

[00:01:05] Marie Vakakis: Then this episode’s for you and to have this conversation I have with me. Tracy, welcome to the podcast, Tracy. 

 

[00:01:12] Tracy Proud: Oh, thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to be here. 

 

[00:01:16] Marie Vakakis: I love hearing about the unexpected ways that people find their way into this work. You’re so passionate about what you do. That’s very clear in the interactions we’ve had prior to setting this episode up.

 

[00:01:27] Marie Vakakis: But is there a particular moment or was there a particular moment or experience that made you realise, yep, this is what I wanna do. This is, this is the job, the career, the vocation for me. Yes. 

 

[00:01:39] Tracy Proud: So I always say long story short, but then give a long story so we’ll see where we go with it. Look, I guess broader in terms of how I’ve ended up as a psychotherapist from my childhood.

 

[00:01:54] Tracy Proud: We had a lot of people around us, a lot of services that supported us, [00:02:00] um, had a lot of trauma in my childhood and poverty and those types of things, and so. I was so lucky that we had access to services and beautiful humans who helped me and different members of my families in different ways and without.

 

[00:02:19] Tracy Proud: Knowing any of the language around it, I knew I wanted to be in that type of role. Working with people when they’re at the most vulnerable, particularly when people are marginalised. It’s not that I don’t wanna work with people who aren’t marginalised, but it’s kind of like a sliding scale of, well, if you don’t have a voice.

 

[00:02:38] Tracy Proud: Then I’m, I’m drawn to wanting to, to help. I remember saying to someone when I was 18, oh, I wanna be a counselor, but I didn’t know what that word meant. I ended up working in lots of roles that supported my desire to work with people. And when I was pregnant with my last child, who’s now [00:03:00] 11, that’s when I.

 

[00:03:02] Tracy Proud: Became a therapist, you know, finally kind of realised I could do it. Even that, even how I became a psychotherapist. I didn’t know that’s what I was, I didn’t know what one was. I just really liked the woman I was talking to on the phone at Vission, and I’m like, well, I’ll choose this course then. So that’s how I became a therapist and.

 

[00:03:20] Tracy Proud: I never dreamed I would work with couples. It was never where I wanted to go. I always thought I’d work with addiction because addiction impacted my life a lot when I was younger. So I was always feeling like that’s where I was gonna go. And the universe sent me, and we have full permission to, to speak about this from my client.

 

[00:03:44] Tracy Proud: My second ever client was gender diverse, but at that time I. There was no language around it. They didn’t know how to talk about it. I didn’t know how to talk about it. I tried to get some training, couldn’t get any training, and the lack of education and information for me as a [00:04:00] therapist out there to be able to upskill, to be able to make sure I was working in an affirming way with this person.

 

[00:04:06] Tracy Proud: So my second ever client that I worked with took me on a journey of learning more about gender diversity and. That’s where my, I guess. Passion and dedication to having more affirming practices around diversity generally came from, and it was the same with couples work. You know, it was, and I say couples work, and I just want to, you know, kind of put a disclaimer there that when, when I say that, I mean relationship work.

 

[00:04:35] Tracy Proud: Not everyone is in a couple, some people are in different types of relationships, but for purposes of ease for the podcast, I’ll, I’ll say couples. When I mean. Relationships and they might be made up of more than two people. But with relationship work, I was adamant I was never gonna work in that space May I think I was just like, that’s too many people to work with.

 

[00:04:57] Tracy Proud: That’s too many people. Until a, a [00:05:00] supervisor of mine said, when are you gonna stop sending me these referrals and start working with relationships yourself? And I was like, okay, maybe I’ll get some education and qualifications around that then. So that’s how I’ve ended up here. So short story longer. 

 

[00:05:17] Marie Vakakis: As you were talking about all of those things, I was sitting there nodding, thinking the benefit and ability to work with couples and with families is like early intervention and prevention for future generations.

 

[00:05:29] Marie Vakakis: And kind of I can relate, having studied to work with young people, with adolescents, and then moved into family therapy. If people have listened to the podcast before, they’ll know I’ve spoken about this where I. Found the sweet spot of working with teens and was like, yep, great. Got this. And then I’m like, oh my God.

 

[00:05:46] Marie Vakakis: They come with parents and I don’t know what to do with parents I had other than give them an informative brochure. It’s like, I dunno what to do with you. I didn’t know how to handle multiple people in the room. So I went and did what I, what I love to do, study, and did a [00:06:00] family therapy degree. And then in that I thought, well, I really love couples work, so then I went, did the Gottman training and now I’m on the certification track.

 

[00:06:07] Marie Vakakis: And as you’re you’re talking, I, I kind of hear that same desire that. Appreciation for the ripple effect of this work, that you’re not only helping people heal in that relationship, it’s the impact it can have for everybody else. So they heal not just for themselves, but their entire families and future generations and their community.

 

[00:06:26] Marie Vakakis: So what is it about this work that feels so important to you? 

 

[00:06:30] Tracy Proud: Yeah, it’s the driving force in terms of trying to be able to support people, either when they already have dependence or if they’re thinking of having dependence to heal prior. I. To us working with them as adults, healing from what happened with their parents.

 

[00:06:49] Tracy Proud: So yeah, I think whenever I kind of feel like, oh, maybe, maybe I’ll go back to individuals, or maybe I won’t do couples anymore, or I kind of remember the deep feeling that [00:07:00] the work that I’m doing and the work that these people are coming to me to do is. So important and kind of life changing for not just them, but for literally then everyone who will be in their attachment circles.

 

[00:07:16] Tracy Proud: And so I just feel like it kind of flows on so much that it’s so meaningful. I mean, you, I’m sure you’ll have worked with individuals before and sometimes you’re like, oh, if I could just get the other people in the room too, you know? ’cause it’s never one person. No, no one is an island. 

 

[00:07:33] Marie Vakakis: I really love that saying that no one is an island.

 

[00:07:36] Marie Vakakis: And I think sometimes with individual work, and I’ve, I’ve done a lot of this myself. We focus on just that person. We hear one side of the story. We might even pathologise very natural, normal, even potentially healthy responses to. Adverse experiences and negative life events and abhorrent situations. So there can be a lot of missed [00:08:00] opportunity for changing the system just by trying to focus on one person.

 

[00:08:04] Marie Vakakis: If we look at couples with children in particular, ’cause we’re looking at sort of the intergenerational, I guess, support and healing. What are some of the things that happen in couples therapy that actually benefit. The next generation. What do you observe or what do you see? 

 

[00:08:21] Tracy Proud: I think when it comes to the relationship and, and the primary couple, whatever you learned, I.

 

[00:08:29] Tracy Proud: Growing up, we can have an idea about what we logically believe. Like, oh, I don’t believe that this is the right thing to do, or this is the right thing to do, but then we go and do it ’cause we are programmed, you know, whatever we learned about love and parenting and communication and pretty much most of the human behaviors, we would’ve learned them so early on that we don’t even think that that’s what we believe.

 

[00:08:53] Tracy Proud: It’s kind of like sometimes when I’m working with a couple, it’s. Eye open and to watch them realising that [00:09:00] they act like they believe that ’cause they’re like, no, no, no, no. I believe that. I don’t know that you shouldn’t hit your kids or you shouldn’t shout at your kids, or whatever it is. They’ll have that belief, but then their actions will speak differently because what we know, you know, what you and I would know and what most people who work with.

 

[00:09:19] Tracy Proud: Mental health and attachment and relationships would now is that that blueprint was created a long, long time ago, and whilst we are never gonna be able to change what our experiences were as a child, I. We can become really aware of what our beliefs are and where they come from. So it’s like, am I acting in accordance with what I actually believe or am I, am I reacting to what I saw growing up?

 

[00:09:50] Tracy Proud: Or am I reacting to what I learned love looks like or learned parenting looks like? And so I think it can show [00:10:00] up. In lots of different ways, but the key for me, I think is about people becoming really aware of themselves. The more aware, I mean, you and I have spoken about this previously. You know the, I come from a trauma background and I still will, will revert back to my kind of self-sabotage in ways sometimes or my old belief systems.

 

[00:10:24] Tracy Proud: But because I’m so aware of them in the moment, I can usually. Catch myself and realise that I’m, I’m kind of. I’m behaving in a way that that, that I don’t want to behave in. But for the majority of people, that’s a big discovery journey. That’s a long-term discovery journey. And you don’t just kind of go, oh, my partner said that I do this, I’ll stop it.

 

[00:10:48] Tracy Proud: You know? ’cause it’s there for a reason. It it protected us at some point, or it worked well for us at some point. So I think our experiences as children show up in our relationships. All the time. And it comes [00:11:00] down to how self-aware we can be. And then it comes down to how we can be communicating that with our partner so that they learn, you know, when I do this, you know, when I scream at you for doing A, B, C, and you don’t seem to understand why it’s important, it’s because of this.

 

[00:11:17] Tracy Proud: And then you’re letting them know that, that your response isn’t always about them and. You are also kind of giving them some insight so they can have a bit of empathy maybe, rather than getting really pissed off back at you, you know? So that’s when it comes to the relationship. But when it comes to parenting, you said something before that really struck a chord with me about how, and not everyone is a parent, but for those who are having kids and having any kind of.

 

[00:11:46] Tracy Proud: Trauma background, particularly if it’s not processed or you’re not aware of it, or even if you are, you are gonna get triggered by your children whenever they are reminding [00:12:00] you or kind of bringing up memories for you or bringing up experiences for you that, whether it’s whether you found them traumatic or whether you received the same thing they’re receiving or didn’t receive what they’re receiving.

 

[00:12:12] Tracy Proud: So I think being aware of that is something that. I would say is really common when I’m working with couples who are parents is pretty much 90% of the time we are gonna be working through some. Of the challenges they’re facing as parents, and it will be related to the fact that in those moments, they are being transported back without necessarily consciously knowing that to the things that happened for them as children that are impacting the way that they are connecting or responding to their kid.

 

[00:12:46] Tracy Proud: Or to their partner around parenting? 

 

[00:12:49] Marie Vakakis: Well, we could really talk about that for ages. There is so much that gets overed for us and that we keep tripping over as adults. That is stuff from, from our childhood or from [00:13:00] past experiences, and so much of what we expect in relationships, whether it’s being shown love through words or gestures or quality time.

 

[00:13:08] Marie Vakakis: Comes from what we learned growing up, and sometimes we don’t even realise that we’re operating from those patterns. Like you’ve said. Some of it is things that we feel is implied or we’ve picked up along the way through observing our parents a whole bunch of stuff. And one of the common struggles, and I’m sure I’m not alone when I say this, but I see people come to therapy with the expectation that our partner should just know what we want without us having to ask.

 

[00:13:32] Marie Vakakis: And I definitely have been. In that position as well, being like, why can’t you just read my mind and know what I want in this situation? But when that doesn’t happen, it could lead to frustration. And so this is a real challenge for couples, these ideas of unspoken expectations, those little things we just assume our partners should just know without us having to, to say to them.

 

[00:13:54] Marie Vakakis: And then if they don’t know, we attribute a meaning to that, that if they don’t know, then they [00:14:00] don’t love us or they don’t care. So. For example, maybe it’s bringing you your favorite snack if they go to the supermarket or giving you a hug in the right moment, or remembering an important date. You know, the snack one is a good example.

 

[00:14:12] Marie Vakakis: It’s like, do you need anything from the shops? No, I’m fine. But then they come back empty handed. It’s like, but I want chocolates. Like, well then why did Jasper Chocolates like, well, I wanted you to know that that’s what I wanted. And to see it on sale or see it there and think, oh, Marie would really like that chocolate, but I don’t wanna have to ask you to get it for me, because then it’s not.

 

[00:14:28] Marie Vakakis: You thinking of me and it’s so messy, right? Like why do so many people struggle with this idea of asking for what they need? And how does this play out in the way couples communicate? I. 

 

[00:14:39] Tracy Proud: But then you’re like, no, I wanted you to get me the chocolates without me asking for the chocolates. Such a common thing that comes up and you know, I guess let’s use the chocolates as the example.

 

[00:14:50] Tracy Proud: So in session, when those types of comments are shared or those types of needs are shared, you know, I need to be [00:15:00] cuddled, for me to feel loved, I need to be told what you like about me, for me to feel loved. Or I need to be taken out on Valentine’s Day to feel loved what I will hear so much of the time.

 

[00:15:14] Tracy Proud: And I will tend to disappoint my clients with my responses is, but I want them to want to know and I don’t want to have to ask. And I say to them, that’s all well and good. Go watch your rom-com. ’cause honestly, the quickest way to be misunderstood is to not express yourself. So yes, we can understand that for some people expressing their need in and of itself is their response to what they’ve learned as a child.

 

[00:15:40] Tracy Proud: But. Once we are aware of that, like if, you know, if you, if you can be saying to yourself, I know that I find it really difficult to be honest with my partner about exactly what I need, then that’s something that I’d be saying to someone. You’re gonna wanna look at that. And let me put a [00:16:00] disclaimer in in here that everything we are talking about today is around healthy non-abusive relationships.

 

[00:16:07] Tracy Proud: So obviously. If you are in an abusive relationship, then this conversation, these kind of strategies and tools we are discussing aren’t going to be relevant. But if you are in a relationship that is healthy, then if you can’t talk to that person about something you need, what that does not signify is that you’re not loved.

 

[00:16:28] Tracy Proud: It doesn’t also signify that you are. Crap at communication. It signifies that there is a block somewhere that stops you being able to do that. And whether you want to meditate on that, read a book, see a therapist, just sometimes being aware of it. Can be enough sometimes just realising, do you know what I always struggle with?

 

[00:16:49] Tracy Proud: That can be enough to make a little bit of a change. That’s where the problem stems from. I see. It’s more that if we are expecting our partner to guess our needs, we are going to [00:17:00] be sorely disappointed the majority of the time. 

 

[00:17:02] Marie Vakakis: So we both kind of see similar things in our work where we have a hope, a dream, an expectation that maybe we don’t vocalise and, and we think it should be implied, that someone should just know, right?

 

[00:17:15] Marie Vakakis: Like, if they, they loved us, why wouldn’t they do X, Y, Z, or, you know. Do a surprise for us. And it’s tricky ’cause I know I talked to couples about this even in clients in individual therapy and they’re like, oh, but I would do this for them. And it reminds me of when we were little, when we have this, you know, the golden roof don’t do for someone else what you wouldn’t want done to you, but in, in relationships it’s due for them what they would like done for them.

 

[00:17:38] Marie Vakakis: So if you love birthday parties and surprise parties and you’re like, I just, ah, I wanna, a surprise party is so bad and I love these and I’ll organise ’em for my friends. Or let’s say for my partner, and your partner really doesn’t like to celebrate their birthday in that way. And they rock up to this party and they feel blindsided or overwhelmed.

 

[00:17:58] Marie Vakakis: And you’re sitting there thinking [00:18:00] how ungrateful I put in all this effort and they don’t like it. And then for your party, they do something low key and maybe book a restaurant and you’re like going to the restaurant thinking, oh, maybe this is the surprise. And they’re like. It’s just just us and then you are deflated.

 

[00:18:15] Marie Vakakis: And so we often find ourselves doing for someone else what we would want done for us, or we just don’t pick up those subtle kind of social cues or little hints without being explicit. And I think that can be really painful. And so I guess it comes to the next kind of thing I wanna talk about is so much of conflict in relationship is not about the thing that it’s about, right.

 

[00:18:36] Marie Vakakis: It’s often a deeper meaning behind. It’s not that you forgot the chocolate, it’s not that you didn’t organise a surprise party, you know, whether it’s wanting a gift or, or more intimacy or a certain type of affection. There’s, there’s a need that’s behind some of these things that helps us feel loved and valued.

 

[00:18:52] Marie Vakakis: And when couples can struggle to communicate those needs, it leads to things like resentment and understand misunderstanding or feeling [00:19:00] like our partner just doesn’t get it. So how do we help couples move beyond those surface level niggly bits and those frustrations and get to those deeper conversations about what these things, about what their needs really are and and what they mean?

 

[00:19:13] Tracy Proud: I very rarely would work with a couple who’ve got all of that sorted out. It comes down to so many things. Obviously communication’s a big one there. It’s finding healthy ways of being able to talk about what your needs are, what needs are currently being met, what needs aren’t being met, and which ones are non-negotiables for you.

 

[00:19:33] Tracy Proud: And then it’s about trying to give them the space to hear that, empathise with it, and then also share with you and. You know, we all take everything personally. That’s just the way most of us will, you know, we hear someone say something straight away. We’re like, what does that mean about me? To me, for me, you know, it’s human to do that.

 

[00:19:53] Tracy Proud: I. So it’s a bit of a learning curve, and when I’m working with couples, that’s one of the [00:20:00] very, very first things we have to learn to do is how to communicate in such a way that you are listening to someone without judgment, even though what they’re talking about probably really impacts you and might even feel like it’s in some way an attack on you.

 

[00:20:15] Tracy Proud: So. How we would work with that particular scenario would be first learning how to have a conversation and hear your partner without taking it personally. And you’ve touched on a few of the kind of. Gottman trainings previously, which is a, a modality I’m trained in. And you know, they talk about the four horsemen.

 

[00:20:34] Tracy Proud: So if you are communicating with your partner and you are using any of the four horsemen, it’s unlikely the communication is going to go well. It’s unlikely you’re gonna get to a healthy outcome of that conversation, but if you can be aware of that and make sure that you are not. Criticising, you are not being contemptuous towards your partner.

 

[00:20:55] Tracy Proud: You’re not defending every single thing they say, and you’re not stonewalling [00:21:00] them by pushing them away or disappearing. Then I would want my couples to get to a place where they can hold that space for each other and have a healthy conversation about things that might still make them feel sad. Might feel sad for you to hear from your partner that they would love you to want sex with them more.

 

[00:21:20] Tracy Proud: But your sex drive for whatever reason, or your desire to have sex with them is lower. That can be really hard to hear. But I would be working with my couples to get them to a place of understanding that being in a relationship doesn’t mean we have the same needs, doesn’t mean we have the same.

 

[00:21:39] Tracy Proud: Communication styles doesn’t mean we have the same beliefs. Even, you know, where you wanna get to is a place where you can have conversations about those things and make sure that you are aware of the things that are non-negotiable for each other. So if it’s non-negotiable for you to never have a gift, [00:22:00] if your partner says, I’m never gonna, it’s just something fundamentally that I feel.

 

[00:22:06] Tracy Proud: Strongly about I’m, I’m never gonna give you a gift. You then get to decide, well, I don’t think I can be in a relationship with someone like that. Then what is not helpful is what we often see, which is your crap. ’cause you don’t get me gifts. You know? I. Because then it’s that, so I’d be working with a couple to kind of understand the consequences of that.

 

[00:22:27] Tracy Proud: You know, it’s like, well, if we’re using your analogy of the chocolate almonds, or my analogy of the sex, if you are having a conversation with your partner and saying, this is super important to me, and your partner says, I know, but I can’t give it. That’s one thing. If you are saying to your partner, this is super important to me, and they’re saying, I get that.

 

[00:22:48] Tracy Proud: But I don’t wanna give it. There are two different things for them to be saying. Everyone gets a choice then to decide whether they want that in their relationship. ’cause there is no magic [00:23:00] way to get it to the point where you both want the same things. You both feel loved in the same ways, and you both.

 

[00:23:08] Tracy Proud: Deliver on that. There’s a, I guess, a commonly held belief, which I try to stay away from gendering things, but I think there’s a commonly held belief amongst people that men always want sex and women don’t want it. And where do non-binary people fit in that I don’t, you know, who knows what, where, where they’re put on that spectrum of, of wanting and not wanting.

 

[00:23:27] Tracy Proud: ’cause we don’t talk about Diddy enough. But I would completely disagree with that. I would say absolutely. I do see a correlation in the fact that often there will be, if I’m working with a heterosexual cis couple that. Is more often than not, the person who wants more physical intimacy and sex is the man.

 

[00:23:51] Tracy Proud: And more often than not the person who wants something else first or not. The physical intimacy is the woman. So we’ll go with that one just because it’s [00:24:00] the most common and. People will often feel like that’s gotta be a deal breaker. Then if my partner wants sex three times a week, and I know when I say that, everyone’s like, alright, okay, so it’s three times the week the the average.

 

[00:24:15] Tracy Proud: ’cause there isn’t one, there’s no real normal. But you know, if your partner says, I want sex this many times for me to feel loved, and the other person says, that’s just not something I can do, then you have to have conversations about what that’s gonna mean long term for you. But. What I’d also be encouraging people to do is going underneath that and saying, well, when when you get the chocolate covered almonds or when you get the sex, what does it mean to you?

 

[00:24:41] Tracy Proud: How does that make you feel? What do you feel I’m saying when I do that? Because then I. Sometimes we can be meeting that person’s need in a way that more aligns with what we can offer. But you’re right, so often we’ll get very, very stuck on the [00:25:00] surface level of, you didn’t buy me any nuts when you went out, and I always buy you nuts.

 

[00:25:04] Tracy Proud: And that means I love you more and, and. What are we gonna do about that? 

 

[00:25:09] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, there’s so much in what you’re saying that we could unpack any one of those topics, but we’re talking about people that are struggling to sometimes express their needs in relationships, whether that’s wanting affection, reassurance, feeling valued, and that can be in a number of different ways through.

 

[00:25:24] Marie Vakakis: Gives quality time, acts of service. Like we’re not gonna go into the five love languages. But the thing is, in instead of communicating them directly, they hope their partner will just know. And that, as we can see, leads to frustration and resentment. And you also mentioned that sometimes a need isn’t just a preference, it can be a deal breaker.

 

[00:25:43] Marie Vakakis: And you used the example around sex, and these conversations do come up a lot around intimacy. And if someone needs sex to feel loved, the context around it can really matter. Are they feeling emotionally connected? Do they feel desired outside of the bedroom? And on the other side, if someone doesn’t want [00:26:00] sex as often, you know, what’s happening for them?

 

[00:26:02] Marie Vakakis: Is it stressed? Is it exhaustion? You know, is there something deeper about how they’re experiencing intimacy? And without having those conversations, it really puts people in a position to feel. You know, rejected, unloved, dissatisfied in the relationship. And so if it’s already hard to talk about something like you didn’t get me chocolates or this thing that I’ve, I’ve wanted, or help me in this way, I.

 

[00:26:28] Marie Vakakis: In things that are outside the bedroom. I think when it comes to sex, it’s so much harder to talk about and it’s not a need, like we’re not gonna die without it. The human race might, but you know, we’re very, very far from that and I encourage a lot of the couples I work with to have a think about what does sex mean to them?

 

[00:26:43] Marie Vakakis: How does it help ’em feel connected? What would they like from their partner? How do they. You know, do they have these myths around it being spontaneous all the time? How do they really connect? Are there other ways that they connect? How do they go about [00:27:00] initiating or are they hoping their partner will?

 

[00:27:02] Marie Vakakis: Or are they kind of hinting and being kind of like smart assy or petulant? Because no one wants that. So how do you help couples talk about sex and 

 

[00:27:11] Tracy Proud: intimacy? When I try and talk to couples about sex and intimacy, I say like, intimacy isn’t sex. Intimacy is being exposed and vulnerable. And so when couples come to see me, if sex is one of the things they wanna talk about, I will regularly tell them that.

 

[00:27:32] Tracy Proud: That’s gonna be what we are discussing once we’ve been in therapy for a while. Because if you’re not communicating well, if you’re fighting a lot, if you’re feeling disconnected, or if you’ve got unresolved personal situations that are happening for you, then diving into something that for the most part involves you being ex completely vulnerable and exposed, [00:28:00] all you’re gonna get is shut down.

 

[00:28:02] Tracy Proud: So we can’t have conversations about sex and intimacy unless we feel completely safe to even acknowledge what we want to ourselves. 

 

[00:28:12] Marie Vakakis: One of the things I sometimes tell people, if you are not able to talk about sex and you probably shouldn’t be having it and. I think we do ourselves a really big disservice in sexual health education and sex ed because while we’re getting better at public health messages around safety, in particular the transmission of STDs, there’s talk about consent and saying no and how to say no, but we don’t talk about pleasure and what feels good and how are you supposed to say no to what.

 

[00:28:41] Marie Vakakis: You don’t want if you don’t even know what you want. So there’s a whole bit there. But what do you think about this idea? If you, if you can’t talk about it, you probably shouldn’t do it. Like if you need to get drunk or be substance affected in order to have sex like that, I, I see that as really alarming.

 

[00:28:56] Marie Vakakis: I. Don’t think many 

 

[00:28:58] Tracy Proud: people would be having sex then. [00:29:00] Yeah, totally. I, I would say that the majority, again, not being a, a sexologist or sex therapist, the majority of issues that are brought to me in the therapy room around sex are more around that type of situation. We, we’ve never communicated about it. We dunno how to communicate about it, and we weren’t taught how to, and you know.

 

[00:29:26] Tracy Proud: I describe myself as really sex positive and my children are being raised in a sex positive house. And what that means is we don’t treat sex as a secret thing or a bad thing, but we talk about it in a very age appropriate way. And we talk about it in a very factual way. And you know, to the point where my kids now.

 

[00:29:51] Tracy Proud: Just roll our eyes and leave the table. If I start on one of my rants, and I think when you say, if you can’t talk about it, don’t be [00:30:00] having it. What, what I would say about that is if you can’t talk about it, you’re unlikely to be having a satisfied health, healthy sex life. That’s what I’d say if I, you know, I used to probably have way more sex than I do now, but I definitely wasn’t.

 

[00:30:16] Tracy Proud: Having that in a necessarily healthy way for myself and the older I’ve gotten and the, the more work I do in this space, even down to sexuality, you know, like I identify as a queer woman now I. I’ve only been able to say that probably for about three or four years. Prior to that, my story was always I was a lesbian and now I’m straight because I didn’t know any other ways to describe that and what my experience of kind of being part of and working with the queer community is that if you’ve had to question your sexuality, then.

 

[00:30:58] Tracy Proud: You are much [00:31:00] more likely to be open talking about it. And that is not to say if you are queer, you are probably really, you know, comfortable talking about sex. But what it does show me is a clear correlation between people who are comfortable to have. Open, honest conversations about anything that relates to their own sexuality are much more likely to be in satisfying sexual relationships or not.

 

[00:31:30] Tracy Proud: If they are asexual, even understanding that that’s a thing like P, you know, some people are asexual, and if you know what that means to you and you can have conversations with your partners about it, then. They get to decide if they wanna be in a relationship with someone who’s identifying as asexual, someone who can’t offer them a particular thing.

 

[00:31:52] Marie Vakakis: The theme that’s coming through in all of these little bits and pieces we’ve been talking about is the ability to have. Open, honest [00:32:00] conversations, and some people aren’t ready to have that yet. So if you’re listening and that’s you, maybe that’s where some individual work can be really helpful is to have a think about what’s blocking even sometimes the self-reflection and then trying to get your kind of thoughts in order, like, you know, get that draft.

 

[00:32:16] Marie Vakakis: And I love that Brene Brown uses this idea of the shitty first draft, like. Just kind of, sometimes if you just give your partner the first draft and they don’t know what to make of it, and maybe you’re already struggling with communication, it’s probably gonna go pear shaped. So there are heaps of books and resources and things that you can find and look for.

 

[00:32:34] Marie Vakakis: And there’s one book that I like to recommend called Growing Yourself Up by Jenny Brown. And I interviewed Jenny about this on the podcast, so I’ll pop a link to that in the show notes. And there’s heaps of couples therapy books, so the Gottman’s have a whole bunch of really good books. I’m just looking at my bookshelf now and I’ve got the Relationship Cure.

 

[00:32:52] Marie Vakakis: What Makes Love Last? The Power of Attachment, actually by Diane Paul. Hello is really good. There’s one called The Man’s Guide to Women, which is next on [00:33:00] my list. I haven’t actually read it yet, but are there any books that you can recommend? 

 

[00:33:04] Tracy Proud: I am terrible with remembering anything. I love everything Esther Perel talks about.

 

[00:33:10] Tracy Proud: We’re not completely aligned, but you know, Esther Perel does great podcasts and a lot of her conversations are about intimacy and sex. So that’s kind of, you know, probably the only name I ever remember. Again, I think it would depend on, like for you, I love the work you are doing with young people. ’cause again, it’s like, this is where we catch them, you know?

 

[00:33:32] Tracy Proud: This is where we can help them understand. And I know that there’s, um, books out about consent. Oh, what’s that? Is it Yuki? Yumi Steins and um, Melissa Kang. Yes. You mean okay. I know, I, I got that one for my kids and again, they were like, oh, here she goes again, talking about sex and gender and, but yes, I can definitely offer some recommendations, but not on the spot.

 

[00:33:59] Marie Vakakis: Thank you so [00:34:00] much for such an interesting conversation. We started off thinking about the impact of early childhood experiences and trauma, and we went into having tough conversations and sex and intimacy, and the theme keeps coming up around talking about things, being upfront and honest and communicating.

 

[00:34:18] Marie Vakakis: And I think that’s such an important bit. A lot of the work we do, a lot of the work I know I do in couples therapy and I’m sure you do as well, is helping people have those tough conversations. And therapy is just one avenue. There’s lots of stuff out there, a lot of resources, but putting your head in the sand is probably not gonna be the most helpful thing.

 

[00:34:34] Marie Vakakis: So thank you so much for contributing to this series all around intimate relationships and couples, and it’s been an absolute pleasure and maybe we’ll get you back on the podcast again soon. 

 

[00:34:44] Tracy Proud: Yeah, I loved talking to you and I’m, I’m a chatter box, so apologies if, if I ran over on some of the points. 

 

[00:34:51] Marie Vakakis: What a rich and insightful conversation with Tracy.

 

[00:34:54] Marie Vakakis: We started off by looking at how past experiences shape our relationships and explored some of the [00:35:00] deeper challenges around communication, intimacy, and unspoken expectations, and. I dunno about you, but it’s really hard and I still sometimes secretly hope my partner will bring me the favorite chocolates, not the box of favorites, but my favorite chocolate without me having to say something.

 

[00:35:15] Marie Vakakis: Actually, probably the salted macadamia nuts, chocolate covered macadamia nuts, dark chocolate ones. Delicious. Anyway, one thing that kept coming up with the power of open, honest conversations and whether it’s expressing what we need, which we know is super vulnerable and it’s really hard to do, addressing relationship challenges or even talking about intimacy, avoiding these conversations, it really helps and.

 

[00:35:39] Marie Vakakis: Therapy is just one way to work through those things. But as Tracy said, there are so many tools, books, resources, podcasts. She mentioned Esther Perle’s podcast, which is called Where Should We Begin? And that’s a really great one. And Esther Per also has a couple of online courses as well, which you can look at.

 

[00:35:53] Marie Vakakis: There are so many things out there, but find your information from reputable sources. So you wanna find people who. Work with couples [00:36:00] who work with families who have, have a background and skills and expertise in that because just random advice. If it feels too simple or too good to be true, it’s probably not going to work.

 

[00:36:10] Marie Vakakis: But anyway, I digress. If this episode resonated with you, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Send me a message or share it with someone who might find it helpful. And if you’re looking for more on relationships and mental health, then make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. Thanks for listening to this complex life, and I will see you next time.

 

[00:36:32] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the Conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll share tools, tips, and insights. There’s a link in the show notes.

 

[00:36:49] Marie Vakakis: Got a question you want answered, ship me an email or a dm. I’d love to hear from you and if you enjoy the show, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review. It helps other people find the [00:37:00] podcast.