[00:00:00] Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome back to this collaboration between the Inside Social Work Podcast hosted by me Marie Vakakis, and the becoming an A-M-H-S-W, the podcast hosted by me, Ashton Hayes. We have been talking this week about. And today we wanna talk about money stories. And money Stories are these myths, misconceptions, beliefs that form over our lifetime, through our family of origin, big C culture, little C culture, our parents’ work ethic, what we hear, what we see, what we absorb.

[00:00:37] Marie Vakakis: It’s all this messaging that sometimes we don’t even know is a story. We just think of it as fact. And so Ashton and I wanna talk about money stories. So I’ll throw it to you. What is a common money story or money myth? How do we, where do we wanna take this one? 

[00:00:55] Ashton Hayes: Yeah. I think this is work that I started to do through some coaching that I was doing a [00:01:00] few years ago, and it really opened my eyes to some of the things that I certainly heard growing up that.

[00:01:10] Ashton Hayes: I didn’t even realise I had absorbed and which were really impacting on the way that I spent money on the way that I thought of money. And it was actually pretty, a pretty big deal when I started to. Work through the stories and the blocks that I was experiencing. And I think one of them, for me, I’m, I’m sort of, I’m Generation X, so I’m on this cusp of the idea of you get a job in the public service and you work there until you’re 55 or 60, and then you retire with a gold watch and a nice little pension.

[00:01:47] Ashton Hayes: And I remember hearing that that is the way that you had. Worth to work hard. Didn’t really matter if you had any kind of career satisfaction. That wasn’t really [00:02:00] something. The idea was just that you put in your 38 hours a week and you got paid for it, and that meant that you were a good contributing member of society.

[00:02:12] Ashton Hayes: And when. I started to wanna do things that were a little bit outside of that and explore and maybe do some backpacking and take some time off. Not a gap year. Of course, that wasn’t a concept when I was a teenager, but just that idea of doing something outside the quote unquote norm. I began to feel as though I didn’t really have value, that my work didn’t have value and.

[00:02:41] Ashton Hayes: That really stuck with me for a very long time, and it was impactful when I went into private practice because it made me feel like I needed to see as many clients as I possibly could a week to be seen as valuable. 

[00:02:55] Marie Vakakis: So what are some of the, like if you could distill that into a message or a belief, [00:03:00] what was it?

[00:03:01] Ashton Hayes: I think the belief was work really hard then fall down. So the idea of burnout wasn’t a thing. You just kept working until you dropped and you were allowed to drop when you were around 60. The belief was that money had to be earned and the way to earn it was to work hard, work really hard. And when I say work hard, I don’t mean like, you know, go in and do a good job and go home, but work.

[00:03:30] Ashton Hayes: Hard in that if you felt kind of yuck at the end of the week, that proved that you’d worked hard. 

[00:03:36] Marie Vakakis: So there was an inherent worth, almost like a martyrdom in a way. Yeah. Yeah, that comes from family of origin 

[00:03:43] Ashton Hayes: for 

[00:03:43] Marie Vakakis: you, 

[00:03:43] Ashton Hayes: family of origin, and I think it was the time as well that I grew up in the Gen Xers. Were the generation after the Boomers, right?

[00:03:55] Ashton Hayes: So. The idea was that we had to be self-sufficient. [00:04:00] We just had to get out there and engage in the hard slog. And I think for many of us, and I’m, this is a very generalised statement, creativity wasn’t really encouraged because that wasn’t seen as something that you could earn money in. Was it a bit of a 

[00:04:16] Marie Vakakis: badge of honor to have?

[00:04:18] Marie Vakakis: Worked hard and come out of it or be self-made or be determined, like were there other values that it wasn’t just about the money. Did it represent something else? 

[00:04:28] Ashton Hayes: I think it represented, it was proof of Worth and proof of worth was. To be able to work really, really hard and you actually weren’t supposed to come out unscathed.

[00:04:43] Ashton Hayes: Part of the badge honor was that you were scathed, which I don’t think is a word, but, 

[00:04:48] Marie Vakakis: so it showed tenacity or resilience or grit, or there had to be some sort of adversity. 

[00:04:54] Ashton Hayes: Yeah. Grit. I think. Grit. Hmm. And so [00:05:00] it’s interesting that I chose. A job that’s traditionally a career that’s traditionally known to be underpaid.

[00:05:06] Ashton Hayes: Underpaid, yes. But very gritty. 

[00:05:08] Marie Vakakis: Mm. Because we are going up against other systems and advocacy where like you can push hard and be very tenacious and very gritty and yeah, feel like the weight of the world depends on you sometimes. So in some ways not so unusual. 

[00:05:25] Ashton Hayes: I think the other thing also was certainly.

[00:05:29] Ashton Hayes: You know, when I think about the people I grew up around and think about, some of the other messaging I heard was that wanting more money than you were paid in your nine to five public service job that you worked in for 40 years was distasteful. So you would to work really hard, but you weren’t to be rewarded with any more than.

[00:05:49] Ashton Hayes: Someone else deemed to be an appropriate reward for you. And so this idea of earning more money, or not even earning more money, but wanting to earn more money, which I [00:06:00] don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, was somehow deemed as vulgar for everyone or just for women. Absolutely For women. Yeah. So I think that that began to change though certainly as.

[00:06:17] Ashton Hayes: My generation and those who were a little bit older than me sort of came out of that idea of, well, I, I don’t have to stick to this one small thing. I can be something big. Ambition is fine, money is fine. We’re allowed to earn, we’re allowed to do things. 

[00:06:34] Marie Vakakis: I find this topic. Endlessly. Fascinating. And I, I’ve done two episodes on the Australian Finance podcast.

[00:06:40] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. Around this, around couples talking about money and families talking about money. So I’ll pop a link to those in the show notes. And it’s a topic or a theme. I mean, we all have money stories, so it’s not a, it only comes up for some people. We all have it Sure. How we view money. Can create a lot of conflict in couples.

[00:06:58] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And so if you’ve [00:07:00] been listening to the podcast, you know, I work a lot with couples and this is one of those things where I think it’s really interesting to reflect on where does it come from? Do we see money as representing it represents something to us? Is it safety, is it security? Or does it reflect, you know, if you have it, it reflects hard work.

[00:07:23] Marie Vakakis: And something to be proud of, or do you see, and I have one, I guess a vignette, let’s call it, of various couples. I’ll, I’ll make it up. It’s a bit of a story where they were arguing about private school versus public school, and I’ve shared this analogy before, this story before, and one was recognising that where she came from.

[00:07:43] Marie Vakakis: They would make fun of the kids getting off the bus, the school bus, a private school bus. There was this attitude of they were handed everything on a silver platter and oh, there’s such, you know, Ty toy snobs or something like that. And so the idea of sending kids to private school was a hell no. [00:08:00] I don’t want my kid to be.

[00:08:01] Marie Vakakis: Snobby or entitled. Mm. He was looking at it of, I work this hard from my starting point. If I can give my kids one step up higher and they continue to work this hard, they’ll have an easier life. Mm. And so her money story, while there was some really good values in what she was trying to teach her kids around being grateful and.

[00:08:25] Marie Vakakis: Being open-minded and not thinking they’re better than other people. She didn’t realise that that fear of being wealthy kept her small. It stopped her applying for promotions. It stopped her building any sort of financial security, and it was almost like a resistance to be seen as handed everything.

[00:08:46] Marie Vakakis: That meant she was going to leave a life of poverty if something didn’t change. Mm-hmm. And so examining those and understanding those is really, really huge because you might be sabotaging [00:09:00] yourself if you don’t think you deserve it or inherently bad. Or I’m not good with money, or all these stories and myths that you tell yourself.

[00:09:07] Marie Vakakis: So looking at them is so important. 

[00:09:10] Ashton Hayes: I think you’re absolutely right and I think it’s true to say that everyone has money stories and I think people understanding that can then lead them to take some time to examine their own. What were some of your money stories? 

[00:09:25] Marie Vakakis: I saw it as a renewable resource.

[00:09:27] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. I saw it and my family prioritised education and health. And so if I needed to go to the dentist that happened, that was fine. We went, if I needed tutoring, that was, I knew that that would be available, that we would find the money. If I wanted to buy a pair of Levi jeans, I had to put it on lay. So my, my parents had some very clear priorities.

[00:09:52] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And that has. Stuck with me to somewhat, so I bargain hunt with clothes, and if I need to go to the dentist, I go, [00:10:00] if I need to get my neck adjusted because I’ve got a migraine, I go to the osteo and I, I make it work. Right? And so I’ve, I recognise that I value healthcare and professional development and learning.

[00:10:12] Marie Vakakis: So I didn’t think, oh, that’s gonna give me a H debt. Intentionally, this degree will be helpful. It’s what I wanna do. I know that that’s a investment in my future. So I saw education and healthcare as important and I saved other ways, but sometimes maybe too much where I’d be wearing something old and ratty and think if I’m a re kondo this, it definitely wouldn’t bring me joy.

[00:10:36] Marie Vakakis: And I feel old and frumpy and it’s got a hole in it. So I’m always balancing trying to. Not be wasteful and environmentally conscious and upgrading things that I feel comfortable in. And so I saw money as a renewable resource as well. Like if I needed to save up for a trip, I got an extra job. If I needed to work towards something, I was really good at [00:11:00] saving.

[00:11:00] Marie Vakakis: And I had a version of the Barefoot Investor Model, so if anyone hasn’t read that, go check it out. It’s a really interesting book. But essentially just putting money into different piles as a percentage. And so I had that literally in envelope. So I used to get paid in cash and put money aside for rent money aside for bills.

[00:11:16] Marie Vakakis: And I was super frugal and clever where I would have, like, I used to work at Tandy Electronics for a little while, so I got a staff discount for the Vodafone prepaid sim card, and then I would also get the fuel voucher, and then I would, so I would like. Multiply so many different things. Mm. And I was really good at working at the bulk price of something.

[00:11:36] Marie Vakakis: So I was good at saving. And then it wasn’t until probably my twenties I started learning about growing money. Mm-hmm. And investing and educating myself around that. So I was very aware early on that the job I had wasn’t going to pay lots. So I had to learn how to manage what I had so I could do the things I wanted to do.

[00:11:55] Marie Vakakis: And for me, that was travel. Every year I would travel and I made some [00:12:00] very intentional savings decisions. And then I started to learn about investing. And so one of the things I. Highly, highly, highly encourage people to do with a sense of urgency. Learn about money. Pick up, I don’t know, the barefoot investor.

[00:12:17] Marie Vakakis: Pick up, she’s on the money. Listen to a podcast. Do something so you can feel like you can breathe. Understand where your money goes, that every dollar has a job, and start thinking about your retirement and your future from. Now from this moment, I don’t care if you are 18 or 40 or 60. Yeah. You have to have some sort of money literacy because it’s so important.

[00:12:44] Marie Vakakis: No one’s going to come and rescue you, and it’s not enough to just put your head in the sand. It’s gonna bite you in the butt. Yeah. So I’m very big on trying to get people to have an honest look at. Their finances, where their money goes, [00:13:00] how much they earn, what’s going into their super, check your super balances and get some financial counseling.

[00:13:06] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. Upskill. And you can learn that there are bite-size bits of information. You can borrow the book from the library. You can join the library and look up a book on Borrow Box or Libby as an online book. So I really see money as it’s not evil. We can learn how to earn it, spend it, manage it better, and grow it.

[00:13:29] Marie Vakakis: And that wasn’t always easy to do. Mm-hmm. But I like learning, so I just took that on board of, I can learn this too. 

[00:13:37] Ashton Hayes: I think you made a really interesting point around. The concept of money not being evil. And I think in different generations there are different stories. And again, I’m, I realise I’m generalising a bit, but money is neither good nor evil.

[00:13:52] Ashton Hayes: It is a resource. So it certainly was not considered a renewable resource. [00:14:00] You know, for me, a lot of my money stories early on were around. Once it’s gone, it’s gone and there’s no more coming. So things like debt, for example, or investment was considered a bad thing. So when I say investment, I’m not talking about investing for wealth growth, I’m talking about making purchases.

[00:14:23] Ashton Hayes: That are an investment. We talked a little bit in the other episode about spending hours and hours doing something that you could be earning money, uh, versus, um, saving a little bit of money here and there, and in actual fact, you’re spending. Lots of money. That concept of investing in something to streamline your business or investing in a good suit so that you feel confident when you go to interviews, for example, or investing in renting a room where you can see your clients rather [00:15:00] than having to work from home.

[00:15:01] Ashton Hayes: If that’s not something that you. We want to do, investment is about building wealth, is about growth, is about doing something that will have a positive outcome for you as opposed to the idea of I’m wasting money, I’m spending money, and that’s a money story itself. Mm-hmm. Is this a waste, right?

[00:15:22] Ashton Hayes: Ultimately, this kind of idea of, you know, don’t have a coffee or avocado toast and wealth will fall upon you is comes from a time when things were very different. So I don’t subscribe to that notion. If you need a good coffee to get you through the day. Then I think that that is a good investment. 

[00:15:43] Marie Vakakis: I agree.

[00:15:43] Marie Vakakis: And I think you’re just trying to justify a new camera purchase. I’d rather not discuss that. Maureen I, this is why I think it’s really important to. Take a long hard look at your finances. Mm-hmm. And come up with some version of [00:16:00] the Barefoot model. Mm-hmm. Or so many different models. They have a very similar approach where you allocate a percentage to, you call it splurge, fun money, daily spend, whatever.

[00:16:11] Marie Vakakis: Mm. Let’s just say, just to use round numbers, you earn a thousand dollars a week and maybe you know, your. Rental mortgage and bills, groceries, petrol, you factor in what that costs you. And let’s say that is $600, you get paid and then $600 goes to an accountant where those bills come. Then you might have some money that goes into long-term savings.

[00:16:33] Marie Vakakis: If you’ve got debt, you start paying that off. And then you have your daily money. So let’s say that you might only end up with, there might be $50. What you spend that $50 on, knock yourself out. I think in terms of the money psychology, and even if you’re in private practice, even check out the book Profit First.

[00:16:52] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. Because that talks about the same concept of we eat what’s on our plate, so we spend what we’ve got. So splitting up things into multiple [00:17:00] bank accounts. Is really, really helpful. But let’s say that $50 spending, you can, that can be avocado on toast. Yeah. Or you might save it for a month and buy a pair of jeans that you want.

[00:17:10] Marie Vakakis: You get to then have some flexibility in that within some parameters so that you are working towards your savings goals or your future plans. Your investment goals. So I don’t think it’s that difficult. It doesn’t have to be super complex. We tend to get a lot of anxiety thinking about money. Yeah. But take it slow.

[00:17:33] Marie Vakakis: Listen to some podcasts, get an audiobook. Learn how to have some systems around that so that you can do the work. Because if you are sitting there and all you’re thinking is about, oh my God, I’ve only got 18 clients and I needed 25 this week. Yeah, you’re not gonna do good work. 

[00:17:51] Ashton Hayes: That’s exactly right. And I think that before even you get to a point where you can start splitting up your money [00:18:00] into metaphorical envelopes.

[00:18:01] Ashton Hayes: And certainly I’m in a an age group where we certainly did the envelope thing. There are actually little businesses online that we can support by purchasing. They have little, it sort of looks like a little diary and it has money envelopes in it, and it has savings goals in it, and it’s a little bit old school.

[00:18:19] Ashton Hayes: I have one. I think it’s a great idea. But before I was able to get to that, I needed to examine those money stories, and part of how I did that was engaging in journaling prompts. So I have a bunch of journaling prompts and I have some book recommendations that we will put in the show notes. But engaging in that 30 days of journaling can really help you reflect on where those stories are coming from, using those prompts, and then.

[00:18:49] Ashton Hayes: Rethinking how you want your stories to go moving forward. 

[00:18:54] Marie Vakakis: Any books that off the top of your head that you can mention? So I recommend the, she’s on the Money and the [00:19:00] She’s on the Money podcast, but there’s the, she’s on the money book and there’s the, she’s on the money investing the Barefoot. Investor profit first.

[00:19:08] Ashton Hayes: I would love to tell you the names of these books off the top of my head. We just add them to the show. I can see the cover in my head. I can’t see the name, but yes, I did. Uh, in one of the coaching groups I was in, we had this particular woman came and spoke to our group about it and she had a great book that I read and I will.

[00:19:29] Ashton Hayes: Pop that in there. Another one of 

[00:19:30] Marie Vakakis: my favorites is called You’re a Badass at Making Money by Jen and Sarah. Oh, Jen ero. 

[00:19:35] Ashton Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. So I did her coaching, her badass series or Badass. If you Are An American Can’t, which I’m a badass, can’t cope with that. Um, if you are looking for some really great, straightforward information, I love Jen Centro.

[00:19:54] Ashton Hayes: She has audio books and she’s now on TikTok. So I can highly [00:20:00] recommend her. She’s very straightforward, tells it like it is, and I really have benefit out of her stuff as well. Yep. 

[00:20:07] Marie Vakakis: My other tip would be, talk about it with friends. The biggest. Growths I’ve made is by talking about this with other friends.

[00:20:17] Marie Vakakis: I had a gorgeous friend in high school who was studying accounting or business management, something like that in high school was a really interesting, and I learned a lot from her. So she got me onto ING accounts right back when? Oh yes. You know, we talked about savings and then the automatic roundup, and I had another friend teach me about.

[00:20:36] Marie Vakakis: Was then called Acorns, but now it’s something else, and it rounded things up and invested them. And so having conversations with people about savings or wealth creation or interest rates, you know, some of that stuff like it might be awkward, but God, it helps because you can talk about it with people that are at a similar level to you.

[00:20:57] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And it starts to [00:21:00] bust some of that. And if you’ve got a partner, definitely check out the episodes that I talk to on the Australian Finance Podcast with Owen and Kate around those as well, because there’ll be some really good tips around money stories with couples. Great. That’s it for this episode on Money Stories, and tomorrow we’re going to just do a bit of a debrief and a bit of a reflection on this week’s money stories and money conversations.

[00:21:26] Marie Vakakis: And like always, if you have a question that you want answered or you want us to do another collaboration on or something for Ashton’s podcast or mine, let us know. We’d love to do a mailbag episode. Thanks for listening. Bye from now. 

[00:21:38] Ashton Hayes: Bye.