[00:00:00] Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome to this Complex Life. Today I am talking with Jani and we are talking about continuing on the theme of relationships and all things, couples therapy and intimate relationships, all that stuff. And this one has a little bit of a different flavor to some of the previous episodes. So I’m really excited to share this with you.

[00:00:24] Marie Vakakis: Welcome to the podcast Journey. 

[00:00:27] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Thank you very much. It’s lovely to be here today. Thank you, Marie. 

[00:00:31] Marie Vakakis: So we met at a conference, and I really loved what you were talking about. It was sort of a panel looking at sort of trans mental health and relationships. So you seem to have a real interest in working with a particular population or a particular group.

[00:00:45] Marie Vakakis: Can you tell me a little bit about that? I guess niche or area of specialty? Yeah. How did you find yourself there? 

[00:00:53] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Okay, so a long time ago I started working with transgender people because when I was a social work [00:01:00] student, I’m an accredited mental social worker. As a social work student, I knew some transgender people and I ended up doing some work for an agency and they were part of the demographic.

[00:01:13] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So I.

[00:01:19] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And I’ve never been a judgmental person who kind of thought anything about how things have to be some way. So then as a therapist, having been working in therapy a long, long time, we had various couples come along and present to us, and I had individual clients who were transgender. I.

[00:01:49] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And so I didn’t really know very much about it, so I sought some information and then I kind of uncovered this huge volume of information [00:02:00] that, you know, probably isn’t available to everybody about, you know, what it’s like to live that life where you know you need to go and get some medical intervention to help.

[00:02:12] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And then we started to attract couples. Now I work with my husband and we do couples therapy, and it’s based on our training in Gottman therapy. And Gottman therapy is a therapy that’s out of the US originally, but it’s been going for a very, very long time. And so basically, I know my why and my why is really significant to this.

[00:02:41] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Of why I decided, okay, this is a place where I can make things better, and so what will I do with that? I hope that answers your question. 

[00:02:53] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. It, it sounds like you sort of, you fell into it and then it evolved. 

[00:02:58] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Absolutely, [00:03:00] and I decided I wanted to fall into it for a whole host of personal and professional reasons.

[00:03:06] Jani Forest-Wyatt: It’s an area where not a lot of people work with couples who, who are gender, and it’s a much needed service to. Relationship therapy for those people, but also I have members of my family that I’m close to who are transgender. And that made a difference to me because it made me realise that, you know, people need to be who they’re, yeah.

[00:03:31] Marie Vakakis: I work a lot with young people who are trans or transitioning and sometimes we do a lot of family work and sometimes it’s their own. One-on-one support. And I do have several couples as well. And I guess I, I mean, I use the word queer ’cause I think that’s just, it captures a lot of the relationship dynamics.

[00:03:51] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Yeah. Good. Universal term. 

[00:03:53] Marie Vakakis: When you think about queer relationships, what’s a myth that you, you see, or you hear, whether it’s in pop [00:04:00] culture, in TV shows at a dinner party, what’s something that you might hear someone say that just, just drives you up the wall? What do people get wrong? And you know, I want to, I’m talking about this as someone who’s in a cisgendered, heterosexual relationship, so I can only offer a perspective, and it’s not one of lived experience, but there are some things that I hear people say and I just think, oh my goodness, that is just so bad or so incorrect or completely limiting.

[00:04:28] Marie Vakakis: What are some things that you hear that kind of make you think, oh my goodness. 

[00:04:33] Jani Forest-Wyatt: A relationship with someone that you committed to and you might have committed as a same sex relationship committed.

[00:04:45] Jani Forest-Wyatt: The person who is a transgender or non-binary person, a queer person, comes out more fully. It might have been that they’d mentioned it before, but it wasn’t as prevalent as it’s now become, [00:05:00] and that’s because lots of people experience gender dysphoria, which means that they don’t feel at all. Like they’re in the right body and they need to take steps to feel better about themselves.

[00:05:13] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And it’s really important that they do because one of the highest rates of suicide is people who have this gender dysphoria in a very severe form and are not accepted by people. So what.

[00:05:33] Jani Forest-Wyatt: You’ve had this relationship, a gay relationship, relationship, perception, outside relationship changes. The relationship continue and I’ve been told fascinating but quite misdirected pieces of information about that. Like recently, somebody said to me, oh, I’ve heard that, don’t. [00:06:00] Three, four years later, they break up.

[00:06:04] Jani Forest-Wyatt: That’s not on fact at all That isation. 

[00:06:12] Marie Vakakis: And that’s interesting because you know, if you tracked a lot of couples, there would be some that just break up anyway. But what I’m hearing you saying is, and I’ve worked with people where that’s not 

[00:06:22] Jani Forest-Wyatt: the cause. Yeah, 

[00:06:23] Marie Vakakis: yeah. And we can’t underestimate how hard it is and how much pressure it can put on a relationship.

[00:06:31] Marie Vakakis: Do you have such a significant change to maybe un be undergoing medical intervention? To have ruptures potentially with family, just to be part of a smaller part of the population that is stigmatised, becomes a political issue like that really is actually very, very difficult. So what makes it harder for couples navigating that?

[00:06:58] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I think any minority [00:07:00] group is gonna have difficulty because the mainstream has many people who want people to be the same as them. So I think all minorities can have difficulty. So queer couples can have difficulties because? They’re minorities. However, I think that acceptance and perceived acceptance is incredibly important for people.

[00:07:28] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And having to announce things about your relationship to other people is a big ask. I mean, people don’t come up to you a cisgender, right? A relationship. People don’t come up to you and ask you questions about that. They don’t make assumptions about it. They don’t ask you impertinent questions about it.[00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Jani Forest-Wyatt: How do you feel about the fact that your partner identifies as a man? How do you feel about that, Marie? Well,

[00:08:12] Jani Forest-Wyatt: yeah, that must be difficult for you sometimes. It can be, but you see, it’s impertinent. You know, it’s none of our business what happens in people’s relationships and so, okay, well, so you are, you are in a relationship with a man, so you must be heterosexual. 

[00:08:35] Marie Vakakis: Which I guess for some people that For some people that’s the implication and for others it might not be.

[00:08:42] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Well, that’s right, but people don’t go around saying, excuse me, Marie, are you bi or are you heterosexual? You’re in a relationship with a man, so you know we are you. You know, who are you? Nobody says that. Whereas for people who are in queer relationships, there are a whole [00:09:00] lot of assumptions about, you know, who is this person?

[00:09:02] Jani Forest-Wyatt: How are they in this relationship? What’s happening with it? You know, like we have seen couples where the parents of the person who is not coming out as transgender has then said, you know, are you okay? And they might have known this person for a long time. I’m thinking of cases where they’ve known them for a decade or decades and they’ve always loved and accepted that person who’s now come out as transgender, and all of a sudden they’re saying, oh yeah, but you know, look, I can’t support a transgender relationship, but hang on a minute.

[00:09:42] Jani Forest-Wyatt: You’ve accepted this person for decade. For decade or decades. How come you can’t accept them now? What’s the difference in who they’re to, who they were before? I find that quite hard to fathom and I think that there are probably lots of [00:10:00] therapists who see lots of couples and they see lots of different dynamics in couples therapy and so they might also struggle with fathoming that, but I think in the general public there might be a lot of misconception about what that actually looks like, what it’s

[00:10:17] Jani Forest-Wyatt: outside perceptions are.

[00:10:22] Jani Forest-Wyatt: For some people then for others. 

[00:10:25] Marie Vakakis: So how can maybe, how can folk who are perhaps experiencing this, if they’re, I mean, couples therapy is stigmatised in some groups anyway, and there’s a lot of beliefs around it being, that’s when you an absolute crisis. You go when it’s like. The absolute end, or that person’s gonna tell me all the ways that I’m getting it wrong.

[00:10:47] Marie Vakakis: So let’s say someone doesn’t have that and they’re like, okay, so we’re exploring maybe our gender, our sexuality, even opening up the relationship. If that’s something, what can they look for in a therapist like finding a [00:11:00] qualified experience? Couples therapist can be tricky anyway. What should they look for around inclusivity or experience or comfort with their.

[00:11:11] Marie Vakakis: Presenting with their identity, with their presenting issue, with their concerns, with their challenges. What are your thoughts on that? Like where can they go? How do they find someone that’s a good fit? Do they feel safe? 

[00:11:25] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I think that that’s got an overlap with lots of other looking for therapists because I mean, what we, we all need in any therapist or that we have is a feeling that, okay, this person gets.

[00:11:42] Jani Forest-Wyatt: We work as a couple with couples, and I think that that helps because we’re, although we have a lot of similarities and we’re, we think a lot alike, we’re quite different people and I think that, you know, the perception of working as a couple. [00:12:00] With some people don’t want

[00:12:14] Jani Forest-Wyatt: easier. You know, three people, but that’s my personal preference. I do think that Gott therapy is a fabulous therapy, and I think it’s incredibly effective. And I see the results. I mean, we have a really high rate of people achieving what they came into therapy to achieve. And I say that rather than that they stayed together or that they broke up because things can change during therapy.

[00:12:43] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I don’t Gottman

[00:12:55] Jani Forest-Wyatt: qualifications. Is there a [00:13:00] particular style of therapy that they use? You know, there would be people who would want someone with a particular belief system, or there’d be people who’d want someone who didn’t have a particular belief system. There would be people who would want a very approach, and that’s what got therapy is.

[00:13:20] Jani Forest-Wyatt: It’s a very, it’s learning skills and I suppose. The aim, and this is my why, is healthy relationships are really important. Relationships in this day and age where we see so many dreadful outcomes of unhealthy relationships. We need to be promoting healthy relationships. So you need a therapist that’s gonna be front and center of their approach.

[00:13:48] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I.

[00:13:51] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, so it might be some Googling some research, but even asking around, because I know a lot of really great therapists who are [00:14:00] terrible at marketing and they’re really hard to find. So maybe even asking for recommendations and. Being okay to have a session as a taster, as a meet and greet, yes, you will have to pay, and that’s okay.

[00:14:15] Marie Vakakis: Some might do a 10, 15 minute consult, but you might need a bit longer. But for something that’s so personal and vulnerable and private. Finding the right fit and look, and I try to explain it to people that you want to be comfortable with the relationship, but the content’s not always going to be comfortable.

[00:14:34] Marie Vakakis: So it’s like finding, I don’t know the right coach or trainer, they will push you. In a physical sense that it hurts. ’cause you don’t get better at running without pushing yourself or you don’t lift heavier things without lifting heavy things. And that hurts. But you should have some trust in your dynamic with them.

[00:14:53] Marie Vakakis: Trust their technique and be able to say, that didn’t work for me. Can we try something else? So [00:15:00] you’re, you’re finding this balance of some things have to be uncomfortable to do the work, but you want the relationship to feel comfortable enough. 

[00:15:10] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And I think that that comes back to a really fundamental part of all of this is that when you go to therapy, one of the realities is change.

[00:15:20] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Some people find change really difficult. It’s the hardest thing for them to think, okay, I’ve already always done this this way and now I’m gonna have to do it this way. This is a very different way to operate. So for some people that’s, you know, kicking and screaming to get there. And for other people it’s a really easy thing to say, okay, I don’t like how.

[00:15:48] Jani Forest-Wyatt: How are you carried along with this change? Other people that are carrying you along, supporting the fact that change might be very hard for you, and that there might be [00:16:00] really big changes that you have to make. And going back to, you know, gender diverse relationships, queer relationships. You know, it might be that there’s been a lot of big adjustments to.

[00:16:13] Jani Forest-Wyatt: How does your therapist support you through that? How do they guide you? What do they say about it and you know, do they talk the language that you get? 

[00:16:23] Marie Vakakis: I think the change piece is really important and when I’ve worked with couples where one person has come out as trans, we really trying to find this balance of they might have known for years or decades and for their partner.

[00:16:38] Marie Vakakis: This is new information and it’s change and it changes their sexual orientation sometimes and it changes their identity and they might be wholeheartedly supportive and still need to. Catch up and we are finding this balance of grieving maybe what things looked [00:17:00] like or what they were, or even just adjusting to something so different doesn’t mean they’re not on board and not supportive.

[00:17:07] Marie Vakakis: And finding this balance of both people need a certain type of support. And they have different relationship challenges on top of all the other stuff that we have. Work pressures, family pressures, maybe parenting. Having aged parents, work pressures, you know, financial pressures, whatever. Yeah. There’s a whole bunch of other stuff and then there’s this as well that can be so freeing for someone and they could be really excited and be really scared.

[00:17:40] Marie Vakakis: And how like it, there’s so many things happening at once. How do you help couples navigate that? 

[00:17:47] Jani Forest-Wyatt: That’s an interesting question because I think that all couples have to navigate that. I don’t think that you can live with somebody for a long period of time and [00:18:00] not navigate big changes. If you think about a couple who might meet in their twenties and they might stay together until they pass from this life, there’s quite a few changes that happen.

[00:18:15] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Things happen in. Whether you have studied or you’re gonna study, are you gonna have children? Can you have children? How are you gonna have children? How many children are you gonna have? Are you gonna have a, to get a say in that? Being a grandmother of twins, I know that, you know, sometimes things happen and I think there’s constant change.

[00:18:42] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Lots and lots and lots of couples come to us when one partner or two are going through perimenopause and menopause. It’s a common time of big changes. So I think that what I say to the people who are going through the change of, you know, [00:19:00] a gender orientation or a gender identity is this person is your family.

[00:19:07] Jani Forest-Wyatt: You have a lot connected there. What are the parts of this that are causing difficulty with the connection? What would you like to do about those things? What are the things about that that are a bit scary? How have you negotiated those before? So. Sexuality might be a little bit different, but let’s face it, in a long-term relationship, sexuality is a little bit different.

[00:19:36] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I mean, it doesn’t stay the same through a long period of time together. And the sexuality that you might want in your twenties and thirties might be very different to what you want in your forties or fifties. The sexuality that you want in your well for women in your might be very different to the sexuality you.

[00:19:57] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So, you know, I think [00:20:00] you’ve gotta adapt to change all the time and thinking about queer relationships. There isn’t, in some ways, as much difference in how you negotiate changes, as in. Non-queer relationships. Cisgender relationships, you know, there’s more things in common than there are different, and that’s another myth about transgender or queer relationships, is that they’re so vastly different.

[00:20:32] Jani Forest-Wyatt: They’re not really, a lot of the things are the same. Some of the things that are not the same, how other people perceive you and how you are not. How in other parts of society, you know, one is seen or not seen or able to be seen or not seen. We’re in a political minefield at the moment in terms of transgender [00:21:00] rights and the safety of people.

[00:21:03] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So that could be a big part. That could be a, a change that’s very important and significant. But generally speaking. The majority of queer relationships have the same kinds of issues as other people. 

[00:21:20] Marie Vakakis: I think that was a really good point of the biggest difference or the biggest challenge, and I see this, I only see this side of it for the couples and families I work with, is how other people respond.

[00:21:33] Marie Vakakis: And so even within a family, they might wholeheartedly accept. Their loved one and then it’s navigating comments from insensitive bystanders or, you know, the Christmas period tends to be one where there are may be more social events or family gatherings and navigating how to I. And I think this is a really good stuffing for couples therapy to be able to talk about is [00:22:00] how can I support you in those times?

[00:22:02] Marie Vakakis: Do you want me to correct someone or step up and, and protect you or challenge them or do we let it go by and having maybe ongoing conversations around how do we keep us safe? How do I keep you safe, psychologically safe, emotionally safe, and. I think that’s a really big thing, and location plays a really big part of that where you are, your community can dramatically change the impact of some of those things.

[00:22:34] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Absolutely. That’s totally how. Working with couples too, that, you know, when there’s a time where there’s gonna be a collection of people and you know, we all know we’re therapist. We know the only people you can control are, you know, here. So you can’t control what somebody else is gonna, you know, think.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:01] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Well, how are we going to negotiate this and come to come to agreements? And it might be that you sometimes don’t go to some things because there are gonna be people there who are gonna treat you with disrespect. But I mean, quite frankly, should any of us go to anything where we gonna be treated with disrespect?

[00:23:25] Jani Forest-Wyatt: You know, if somebody’s gonna be horrible to you or your children, do you wanna expose your family to that? No. If there’s somebody who’s, you know, inappropriate towards you, do you wanna be around that person? Right. And so, you know, I think that as a, a partner of somebody, it’s important that you think about, this person is my person.

[00:23:51] Jani Forest-Wyatt: They’re the most important person. Apart from myself. So how am I going to make sure that I protect [00:24:00] them? So what agreements are we gonna come to about that? Are we gonna go to this thing where there’s these people who say some really demeaning things? Or are we gonna say, okay, well we’re not doing that because we’re not gonna expose ourselves.

[00:24:17] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And I think too, and I’ve often suggested this to couples, if you want to have some ability to manage something, it might be that you change where you go. So instead of having people at your house, you might go to somewhere else to do it so you can get away. Or it might be that you do it at your house because you think people will behave better when they’re in your space.

[00:24:43] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So I think those kind of simple dynamics are things to negotiate too. You know, will we feel safer in our own space or will we feel safer somewhere else where we can leave? 

[00:24:55] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. I think they’re really good conversations to have, and I. [00:25:00] When we look at Gottman therapy in particular, and I use Gottman and some, I love some EFT tools and, and you know, we bring in bits and pieces.

[00:25:08] Marie Vakakis: The skill that we are trying to build and, and equip people with is how to have the conversation. The content is interchangeable. The content could easily be change from we are having difficulty because we’re a mixed race couple, or mixed culture couple or queer couple, or I know meat vegan or. You know, dog and cat lover.

[00:25:30] Marie Vakakis: Couple difference. Like the, the difference could be a number of things and some are significant differences that cause a lot of challenge, but how we have those conversations is the skill that we’re trying to equip people with. Yes. For someone listening, and I had this come up recently and it, it kind of caught me off, not off guard, but I was working with a young person, or not young person.

[00:25:52] Marie Vakakis: They’re not young anymore. They’re a trans person who has a really supportive partner and. Their concept of [00:26:00] themselves had kind of evolved and changed and they didn’t know how to re rediscuss that, how to bring up with their partner, what would’ve felt like seemingly out of nowhere. Their thinking about.

[00:26:12] Marie Vakakis: The next step of hormonal medical intervention or, you know, they’re, they’re questioning something around their identity. How can people maybe who are listening and like we have really great conversations, we’re really supportive, and I’ve had some things on my mind that aren’t bad. They’re not good, they’re not bad necessarily, they’re just thoughts.

[00:26:34] Marie Vakakis: How do I. Bring that up. How do I just randomly say, Hey, by the way, I’ve been thinking about X, Y, Z. What are some DIY tips or tools that folks can try? I. 

[00:26:47] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I think that getting some literature for your partner to read helps a lot. If your partner’s not a reader, maybe you could get something you know that’s on Audible, or you get them to listen to a podcast or [00:27:00] you sort of find some other way to give them some information, and there is some real misinformation out there.

[00:27:06] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So the sources the right.

[00:27:15] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Out information that’s very accurate. There are therapists who work with transgender people and they’re able to access information. That’s very accurate. But I think another thing to do is to say, look, I feel like I’m not in the right space. I’m not in the right space in a whole lot of ways, and part of that is how I feel about my body.

[00:27:43] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I just wonder if we could talk about that. It’s really hard for me to talk about this, but can we just talk about that? And I think that Gottman therapy offers a lot of things about, you know, how to, you know, listen to understand rather than [00:28:00] just listen to respond. So I think that, you know, there are real skills there in learning to listen.

[00:28:07] Jani Forest-Wyatt: To S to validate, and so if as a partnership you don’t have those skills, then those conversations are much harder to have, but making an assumption that, you know, people are able to listen, to understand, and are willing to listen, to understand then. My body doesn’t feel right and I need to go and see somebody about what kinds of things might be possible for me.

[00:28:39] Jani Forest-Wyatt: These are the things I’ve been reading, and I mean, there’s a lot out there about taking hormones and so I’ve thought about. Of taking something or doing something different. How would you feel about going with me when I go and see this particular doctor? Now this [00:29:00] doctor is knowledge about, about this area that I’m talking about?

[00:29:04] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Would you come with me and letting the doctor know that your partner is coming and that.

[00:29:13] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I times when we’ve referred, I’ve referred personally or I’ve referred,

[00:29:23] Jani Forest-Wyatt: well been to give a medical explanation. And that’s been very helpful because for some people when they hear that it’s a medical thing, they feel better about it. It doesn’t seem so much like just an idea that I had and I’m just gonna go off and do this. Odd behavior. It’s a, oh, there’s something that’s medically not right and we can make it right.

[00:29:50] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I don’t know whether you’ve had that experience. You know, I just find that’s an easy way to kind of get outta, it’s, it’s some odd idea that you’ve just developed [00:30:00] 

[00:30:00] Marie Vakakis: various forms of that. I think I encourage people to talk about talking about it. So a podcast episode, a movie, something might’ve brought that thought up.

[00:30:12] Marie Vakakis: In that moment and then mm-hmm. Catching your partner, not at the, like, don’t set them up to fail. Don’t do it when you’re lying in bed and it’s 1130 at night and then you’re like, oh, hey, by the way, and you know, they might be pooped, so you’re not going to get the reaction that you want from them. It might be in saying, look, can we have a chat?

[00:30:31] Marie Vakakis: At this time or there’s a few things I wanna nut out with you. So if you’re saying talk to you about that might be like, oh my God, there’s something serious. So it could just be, there’s a few things that have been on my mind I wanna kind of sift through or nut out with you. So have that expectation for them of it’s just sort of like brainstorm or, or to download.

[00:30:51] Marie Vakakis: And either ask when would be a good time or say on the weekend, can we carve out some time, go for a walk. And I. [00:31:00] I’m trying to digest all this stuff that I’ve been thinking about and I really wanna share it with you and letting them kind of know that, that, ’cause if they’re thinking about work or kids or.

[00:31:12] Marie Vakakis: What’s for dinner? Who knows any other combination of things and you’ve got this really big, deep burning thing to talk about, or awkward thing, or it feels really vulnerable and you try it and they don’t receive it in the way that you’re hoping for. It can be really uncomfortable and you can feel really defeated and rejected.

[00:31:32] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And I think that you were absolutely right when you said that. Don’t build it up to make it sound like it’s a big deal. I can remember somebody telling me something, you know, once about their sexual identity and they told me, you know, they didn’t tell me that was what it was about. They told me, oh, I’ve gotta talk to you.

[00:31:52] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I’ve something change. And then they proceeded to tell me, [00:32:00] and then I said, so what’s the thing that you think might change our relationship? And they said, oh, that’s it. And I said, well, I think you’d still be the same person that I care about. So I think you’ll still be the same person that I care about.

[00:32:15] Jani Forest-Wyatt: So yeah, it’s not a really big thing for me. It’s just another part of you and you care. You’ll still be part of my family. I’ll still care about you deeply. So the other thing is that the person making whatever disclosure it’s needs to make sure that they’ve got some other parts around them that help them, either internal parts around them that help them or parts to do with, you know.

[00:32:55] Jani Forest-Wyatt: In a situation, in a relationship where they’re used to having some [00:33:00] DNS on a regular basis. The Gottman talk about State of the Union meetings, and that’s a, you know, like for some people, I mean, we advocate that people talk for five minutes every single day to each other about their emotional place.

[00:33:18] Jani Forest-Wyatt: That time. So how are you going today? Right. But I think that a weekly get together to talk about, you know, what’s on your mind, what’s big, what’s going on, how are you coping? You know, what do you want? What plans do you have? You know, what would you like to do about, you know. Or whatever. Should we have this next week turn?

[00:33:42] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Is it? I think that State of the Union stuff is really, really important and for couples who already do that, then I think that’s an excellent,

[00:33:54] Jani Forest-Wyatt: but if you’d not doing that already, I think that’s an excellent thing. Is [00:34:00] have, is have a time where it’s a safe space that you’ve already created, that you’ve said, okay, we’re gonna talk every week, once a week on a particular time, we’re gonna have this talk. 

[00:34:11] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So it really comes back to what you were saying, some of the challenges are, the challenges that all relationships have, and you can’t grow a garden that doesn’t get water or you know, you can’t have the health and fitness that you want without investing in.

[00:34:27] Marie Vakakis: Through certain food, uh, exercise movement of some kind, relationships take work and conflict is inevitable. How you handle it is important. And if you’ve got a good solid foundation that forms that friendship, these other conversations will be easier to have. And so I think some of that is really important for people to remember.

[00:34:53] Marie Vakakis: Those things take time and investment and there’s no shortcut to a good quality [00:35:00] relationship. 

[00:35:01] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Absolutely. There is no shortcut and all of the things that we do in life that are really important for us take some time and some energy and some commitment and some trust, and so a long-term relationship that’s working and that’s healthy.

[00:35:22] Jani Forest-Wyatt: Those things. So I think that that’s absolutely essential that people think about relationships as something that you have to have emotional investment in. And the Gottman’s talk about an emotional bank account. And so yeah, I mean, you put energy into those things and you get rewards. 

[00:35:43] Marie Vakakis: So what’s maybe as a parting, I guess, piece of advice or something people can do, what would you, how would you like to sort of wrap up this conversation?

[00:35:53] Marie Vakakis: What’s a, a takeaway for our listeners? 

[00:35:56] Jani Forest-Wyatt: I think there’s a couple of things that are really essential for [00:36:00] healthy relationships. And one of those is that when you leave in effect, leave, when you move a little bit away from your family of origin to have a romantic relationship. The romantic relationship is separate to the family of origin and the romantic relationship.

[00:36:22] Jani Forest-Wyatt: If it’s a long-term relationship that’s committed. So we’ve got the pillars of commitment and trust. If it’s going to be a serious long-term thing, then that is your family and while the family around you should be supportive and nurturing and helping that relationship and being around for that relationship if there’s difficulty.

[00:36:48] Jani Forest-Wyatt: It has to necessarily, and we’re talking about healthy relationships, not unhealthy relationships, but if it’s a healthy relationship, then that relationship has to be [00:37:00] given a level of priority. So your family of origin has to be given a a place. But you couple them has to be given a different place. And that connection is something that you build upon and build upon.

[00:37:16] Jani Forest-Wyatt: And love grows. And then lots and lots of things, lots of adaptations, uh, adaptations you can make. And there’s nothing more certain than change. 

[00:37:29] Marie Vakakis: I love that. Thanks so much, Jani. 

[00:37:31] Jani Forest-Wyatt: You are welcome.

[00:37:36] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll shared tools, tips, and insight. There’s a link in the show notes.

[00:37:52] Marie Vakakis: Got a question you want answered, ship me an email or a dm. I’d love to hear from you and if you enjoy the show, I’d really [00:38:00] appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review. It helps other people find the podcast.