[00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to this Complex Life. Today’s episode is an encore episode and it’s one of my favorites from last year and I recorded this with psychologist Belinda Gibson and we spoke about some of the barriers that prevent people accessing couples therapy. Whether it’s the myths and misconceptions that they have themselves or the fear that they have a worry about talking to their partner about it or maybe they bring it up in a way that isn’t actually clear to the partner.

What they, they really want, they might say something like, so you want to go to couples therapy when really they want to say, I’m struggling, I want to see a therapist. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that comes up for people when they think about therapy in general and couples therapy seems to have some extra challenges for folk.

I thought it was a really good chance to revisit this episode. I’m currently doing some additional training in couples therapy, I’m on a couples therapy retreat at the moment where I’m with a whole bunch of other couples therapists and we’re upskilling and learning and advancing our skills and having some great robust discussions.

So I thought this was a perfect episode to replay on the podcast and it fits in nicely with the series that we’ve been doing so far about intimacy and relationships. So I hope you enjoyed this Repeat this encore episode all about couples therapy and why some people avoid couples therapy. Enjoy

 

[00:01:21] Marie: Hello and welcome back to This Complex Life. I’ve got Belinda Gibson here with me again. Hello. 

Hi, 

[00:01:28] Marie: so 

nice to be back. 

[00:01:30] Marie: We’ve been tossing around different kind of topics to talk about and one of the ones I thought would be interesting is to talk about couples therapy. I know you’re not a couple therapist, but you do see occasionally some.

I, I see some couples that I’ve seen for a very long time, but this is not my bread and butter, so to speak. 

[00:01:49] Marie: And I work with quite a few couples, but I wanted to talk about what actually stops people coming to couples therapy. I don’t know why this was on my mind recently. I think I wrote a blog post and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes, but I think there’s a, there’s a lot of myths surrounding it, a lot of fear.

[00:02:06] Marie: And I thought that’s something that even though we both also work with individuals, we have some insight into what, What stops people getting the help that they need? So what have you heard? Like, what are some of the stigmas or misbeliefs, misconceptions, myths around couple therapy. What do you hear people say?

[00:02:27] Marie: Because I bet you if you went into a room, and I have tried this sometimes, and people are like, what are you doing? I’m a couple therapist. And they awkwardly kind of, and then like shuffle, shuffle away. Like there’s fear about it, right? Or there’s, there’s anxiety about it. Or if you say you’re going to couple therapy, it has different meanings to different people.

And I think different generations of people. So I think, you know, my generation, which would be 40 plus, there was still, I think there is still somewhat of a legacy of you don’t talk about your dirty laundry in public. You don’t take what’s happening inside the home and share it publicly. Although your therapist is not public, but it has a sense of that because there’s an audience.

There’s someone who gets to see inside something that’s usually private and intimate. Yep. We don’t take our relationship public, well, generally speaking, maybe influencers do, but we don’t take our relationship out in the open. We usually talk about our partners in certain ways, and then the way in which we talk about our partner will change depending on our relationship with the person we’re talking to.

So maybe our close friends, we might be more vulnerable and revealing of what’s happening, but you know, when you go to the workplace, you’re not saying, I can’t stand my partner. When he or she or they do, ABC do. Some people 

[00:03:42] Marie: do, 

but you probably 

[00:03:45] Marie: shouldn’t. 

You know, like, so there is something about that these are our intimate relationships, and I think that they have, and that this is between you and me.

[00:03:55] Marie: Okay, so there’s the belief or the constraint of [00:04:00] this is private stuff behind closed doors. Yep, I think that’s part of it. I’ve heard people say, they say, They’re scared of being blamed for everything. Yes. The fear. Yeah, there’s a fear of being blamed. 

Yep. 

[00:04:16] Marie: And then another one is, maybe it’s a, this is one of those misbeliefs and I find it difficult where it’s like, I’m going to be put in the position as the therapist of being the referee.

Huh. So it’s 

[00:04:25] Marie: like a couple’s going to come and I’m going to be like the umpire or the referee and have to like say who’s right or wrong. 

That’s the fear that the couples might bring to you, or that’s something that you hold? 

[00:04:36] Marie: I think that’s an expectation that some people do bring. 

And 

[00:04:40] Marie: then if I don’t do that, because sometimes some people will, might come with this idea of, Oh, you’re going to tell me that I’m right.

Or you’re going to 

[00:04:47] Marie: tell my partner that they’re wrong. Like they want me to umpire or referee a conversation or a dilemma. And then they have one session and they’re like, Oh, this doesn’t work. You didn’t fix anything. Yeah, I didn’t fix it. But if that’s the belief you’ve got, imagine what it’s like for your partner, right?

[00:05:06] Marie: So if your partner’s sort of saying, well, we’ll fix this in couples therapy, and they’re secretly believing that the couples therapist will Tell them how wonderful and amazing they are and how all the ways their partner’s letting them down. Yep. If you’re the partner in that, you’re going to go, I don’t want to go.

[00:05:20] Marie: Yeah. You’re just going to tell them all the ways that I’ve let you down. Yeah. And you’re going to make the therapist side with you. 

Yeah. 

[00:05:26] Marie: Which we don’t, we don’t do. We don’t do, yeah. And if you’re, you know, that’s the way the therapist is working. Maybe choose a different one. Yeah, I’d be worried if there’s, yeah, some siding with it.

[00:05:38] Marie: So there’s that, I think there’s that misconception of it, that it’s going to be someone sit down and saying, you’re right, you’re wrong, they’re totally reasonable, you’re being unreasonable and just don’t care. Yeah, 

so if I’m the person that maybe feels like I’m going to be told I’m wrong, there’s certainly not a big motivator for me to step into that space.

Yes. Like I’m going to protect myself. Yeah. You know, it’s such a, I mean, fitting, you know, For what your podcast is titled, but it’s so complex too, because you’ve got the couple as, as in the room, but you’ve also got two individuals. Yep. And there’s something about if someone in that relationship doesn’t feel comfortable, doesn’t tend to, or have practice in stepping into hard conversations, Then I can see how couple therapy is just a no go.

I’m not doing that. Right? Because it, it does require you to do something that a lot of people would find difficult. Yeah. Which is to have conversations that are really honest and open. And maybe there’s fear about hurting the partner. Fear of about how I’ll be hurt in that. Fear of what will be revealed.

Maybe fear of what if actually we find out. that this relationship isn’t good for us. Like, what if I find out What if 

[00:07:03] Marie: we find out this is the beginning of the end? What if we So there’s maybe denial of knowing the truth? 

Well, maybe what if I’m afraid that actually, at the moment, if we don’t go, I have hope for us.

Yeah. What if I go and that hope is dashed? Right. Then what have I got? Yeah. Except the reality that potentially someone I’m really invested and loving of Oof. My life as I know it. What do I do then? That’s heavy. Do I want to look at what really is the reality for us? That’s heavy. Yeah. What if I have to change?

[00:07:38] Marie: Well that, that was actually going to be one of the things I was going to share is going into any type of therapy, if it’s individual or couples, Mm. Mm. The biggest thing to prepare for is what are you prepared to change, that you have to do something different. [00:08:00] Even with new insight or knowledge, there has to be a change in how you do something like a behavior activation of some kind, you’ve got to do something with that knowledge.

[00:08:11] Marie: So going to a physio, they might say, they might do their assessment. Like if you keep doing, I don’t know, walking up these stairs, you’re going to hurt your knee. And in order to improve the strength of your knee, you need to do these exercises. And you can be like, yep, cool, thanks. You just listen to it.

[00:08:27] Marie: But if you don’t do anything different and you keep doing the, the thing that they’ve said not to do, the knee’s not going to get better. So there’s more than just saying, well, I went to physio and it didn’t help. 

Yeah. Well, it’s such an interesting conversation, even about change, isn’t it? Like, it’s big.

So I mean, even that, yeah, like awareness is a big part of it, you know, to change, I must first be aware. I have to understand what I’m doing, why I’m doing it, how I’m doing it. And at some point with that awareness, I have to do something. Otherwise I’m just stuck in being really aware of all the ways in which I’m doing it.

either being hurt, hurting myself, not getting my needs met, dissatisfied in life. You know, to know what I’m doing and to do nothing seems excruciating to me. So there is about, yeah, and now what do we do? You know? 

[00:09:21] Marie: I heard someone recently, for some reason, a lot of people are quite scared of the dentist.

[00:09:25] Marie: Are you scared of the dentist? 

No, I’m not scared of the dentist. It’s not something that I think joyfully, yes, I’m seeing the dentist later today. I love the feeling 

[00:09:33] Marie: of clean teeth. 

Well, I mean, I like the outcome, but do I like the process? No, not very much. So some people, 

[00:09:39] Marie: and I’ve had a few people I’ve worked with in the past, when I was in community mental health, who had a genuine phobia of the dentists, and of what they would find, but continuing to, Prolonged the visit actually created more of the problems that they were scared the dentist would find so by not going Yeah, then they actually then genuinely had cavities pain, discomfort, swelling, like they’re actually, so there’s this interesting thing of the more we avoid it or we’re scared to do it, the more denial.

[00:10:15] Marie: That’s still a choice. Like choosing not to do anything is still a choice. It 

is a choice. 

[00:10:20] Marie: Even if you’re like, well, I can’t choose, so I’m going to do nothing. Well, you’ve chosen to do nothing. And that, that’s quite confronting for some people because it doesn’t go away. Like the cavity doesn’t go away, even if you’re like, I’m scared to go to the dentist of what they might find.

[00:10:34] Marie: But it’s still there whether they find it or not. 

In fact, by not going it gets worse. Exactly. So we’re talking about the self fulfilling prophecies, right? Correct. But But it takes courage it does and it’s about what resources what supports do I have and I think sometimes what people don’t realize is a Lot of therapy is about building the resources and self support.

Yeah, it’s not about the finger pointing Yes, it’s about understanding on a deeper level what happens when and You know, I saw the couple once, and I have their permission to talk about this, but there was what came out of the work we did was that when the, one of the clients would come home and the light wasn’t on.

that it would result in them entering the house and they’d be grumpy and huffing and puffing and moving around like a bit of a hurricane. And then the partner of that person would then have their own response, like, well, you’re never happy when you come home. And actually through the work, what we were able to understand is that for the client, when the light wasn’t on, when they came home, they felt unwanted and it activated this part of them that was like, I’m not wanting everyone’s kind 

[00:11:45] Marie: of gone to bed and switched off all the I’m not 

welcome here.

I’m not welcome. I’m not wanted. And they had no idea. And the part, well, no, the partner’s just responding to their grumpiness, like you’re never happy when you come home. And the person doesn’t realize that when the light’s not on, this [00:12:00] is what it activates. They know when the light’s not on, it pisses me off, but they didn’t realize.

That just, just underneath that is this feeling of, because I’m not welcome, you don’t want me. And then the partner’s able to say, I want you, I just never thought about the light. Like, I’m busy doing this other thing. So a meaningful change wasn’t a difficult change. It’s that the partner actively would turn on the light.

When they closed the blinds around the house. And it meant that when the client came home, they would see the light, they would feel the sense of welcoming, and they would enter the house differently. The part of change for them is that they had to enter the house really aware and conscious of, oh my partner is welcoming.

Yeah. So now how do I enter this house to make them feel like I’m happy to be here? 

[00:12:46] Marie: And then also giving them the most generous positive assumption of if out of habit they close the light one day, it’s not because I’m unwanted. It just, that’s not how they, they never thought to show their desire to have me home in that way.

Yeah, it’s not how I show love. We have, you know, we all have, you know, I mean, most of us now are aware of the languages of love, but we show love very differently. You know, in my relationship, I show love by doing. So if I get up and I notice you don’t have a glass of water, Oh, would you like a glass of water?

I’ll grab you one. That’s me saying, I love you. For my partner comes from a family of doing things is about cause you’re not capable. So when I’m asking, Oh, honey, do you want me to grab you a glass of water? I’m thinking, I love you. And he’s hearing you’re not good enough. I’ll get your glass of water. You can’t even do that for yourself.

[00:13:36] Marie: Yeah. Or leave me alone. I can get it myself. 

So then he responds in a, I can get my own water. Right. So then I feel rejected because I’ve just said in my way, I love you. And he’s like, go away. So, you know, it’s, there are such little subtle ways in which we engage with each other. And sometimes the therapy is just about helping uncover those ways.

[00:13:58] Marie: So if we think of it as it’s just trying to. uncover some patterns in a really simplistic way because couples therapy can be long term work and very complex. Yeah. How do we get people realizing like, how do we then break down some of that stigma? If someone thinks, and these are some of the things I’ve heard people say is they’re worried that their partner is just going to break up with them or that they’re going to be told all the ways they’re inadequate, or I’ve been in relationships my whole life, I should be able to figure this out.

[00:14:30] Marie: Or, especially when it comes to sex and intimacy, it’s sort of like Why do I need help with this? It should come naturally. Like how do we even start to name some of those stigmatizing myths? How do you do it with your clients? Well, they’ve already come. So I guess that’s the thing, right, is the ones I see have already worked through some of that to get to the point where they’re, they’ve made that inquiry and they’re there.

[00:14:58] Marie: We still have a lot of. conversations around expectations and what things can look like and I use physical therapy as a really good example or personal training like if you’ve If I was to go from now running, I can only run a couple of kilometers because I haven’t maintained my running And I wanted to let’s say run a half marathon I can’t if I went to a running class once or a physio once I’m not going to get there, right?

[00:15:26] Marie: There’s a muscle memory. There’s mental, like there’s a fitness that needs to come. So if you’ve had gaps in your relationship, if you’ve had conflict for a decade, if you don’t have that emotional literacy or that understanding of yourself, one session is not going to fix it. I know for me, I have a, I use the Gottman method and then I bring in other tools.

[00:15:49] Marie: The first session with the couple, it’s mostly just getting to know them and understand them. Then there’s an individual session each, and then there’s another, and that, those three sessions, they just form part of the [00:16:00] assessment. Because how can I provide an intervention without knowing? enough about what’s going on and what the priorities are.

[00:16:07] Marie: It’s sort of like going to the doctor and he’s saying, I’ve got a stomach ache and they’re like, great. I know the thing just for this. And they, without touching it, looking at it, doing an x ray, running bloods, they just jab you with a needle. You’re like, how do you know that’s the right thing for, for me?

[00:16:22] Marie: So, Oh, I know this stomach problem well enough. 

Yeah. 

[00:16:24] Marie: So we need to, I still do that work of unpacking expectations and talking about, well. This could take months or years to see significant change and we can get some small wins, but you need to adjust your expectations. For sure. I think expectations is important.

[00:16:43] Marie: Otherwise it sets me up for, for letting them down and it sets them up for feeling like inadequate again, if they’re already feeling like that. Yes. So the stigma is different when the people who’ve already come, it’s the hundreds and hundreds of other people who. Don’t come. 

Yeah. 

[00:17:00] Marie: Who could benefit. 

Yeah.

[00:17:02] Marie: And I think finances is one bit, but legal proceedings, divorce, separation, that’s expensive. Oh yeah. That could cost tens of thousands of dollars. That’s a couple of steps cheaper. Much, much, much cheaper. So I don’t think money is always the key thing there. There’s, there’s something that holds people back.

Yeah. I mean, it’s hard to know though, because as a therapist like you, I see the people that have come through the door. So I don’t know what happens to the ones who don’t, that don’t come through. If you’re listening, 

[00:17:35] Marie: feel free to let me know, 

email me and we can have another conversation. Keenly interesting.

Yeah. What I do know if I think about my personal life is I think that there is still a lot of stigma around therapy. Yeah. Whether it’s couples or individual. I think that that still exists. And I think that couples therapy is often thought about as something’s really wrong. Yeah. We go to couples therapy as a last resort possibly, right?

[00:17:58] Marie: Some, 

and some unfortunately do. Yeah. But I, I think it’s just about as much as we can educating and promoting that therapy is actually for me a life support. It supports me in my life. And it’s not where I go when things are in crisis. I want to have been there already because I want to know and be able to call on my resources and my supports internal and external.

[00:18:26] Marie: So it’s sort of like. I seem to use a lot of physical health analogies because that’s helpful for me, but there’s like keeping fit and going to the gym for general fitness and strength. And then there could be a niggle or an injury or a weakness in one of your body parts. And then you might go to a physio or osteo or chiro to work on that piece.

Yes. 

[00:18:48] Marie: So there’s sort of like, you can keep working on things and just keep getting better and more in depth. 

Yeah. 

[00:18:54] Marie: And then some people might have. A particular area of tension in their relationship or life transitions. I think that’s a huge adjustment to parenting, 

[00:19:04] Marie: Adjusting, going back to work, adjusting to aging parents the loss of a job terminal illness, a death in the family, like they’re not things that we know how to deal with.

Well, it’s interesting. I don’t think we’re very well equipped. Well, it’s interesting because it’s about how do we deal with that as individuals and then as a couple, because they are two different things. And I think that therapy might often be thought of as an intervention. But it certainly to me is also preventative, right?

So I go to yoga not because I want to tend to or heal an injury. I go to yoga because I want to prevent my body. from losing mobility. I want to keep my body moving in a way that’s comfortable for me. Just to refer back to those physical examples. And I think also like the, you know, the treat that we get after yoga.

I do love chai time. So [00:20:00] I think that there, yes, therapy I think also has maybe that attached to it, where it’s intervention. And so maybe in the couple too, there’s this question of, Oh, well, is it even bad enough to go? Don’t all couples fight? We’re fine. Yeah. I think you made a really interesting point around expectations in the therapy.

And I think you know, I can only know how I am in relationship with you when I really understand myself. Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of, yeah. The couple’s therapies is getting to know each other in a way that you might not so I talk a lot around Intentional conversations with couples like how are we talking to 

[00:20:38] Marie: each other?

[00:20:38] Marie: What are you learning? So I think I mean the pressure to go to couple’s therapy can also be That then becomes the problem and I’ll let me explain what I mean. Tell me what you think. Let’s say you’ve got a partner Who says I want to Go to couples therapy. Yep. And they say the part like, oh, oh, pretend it’s me.

[00:21:00] Marie: Let’s say I’m telling my partner Hey, I want to go to couples therapy. Yeah, and he was to say no His no then becomes part of the problem. So I then would make up a story Doesn’t he love me that he thinks this is fine. Why won’t he care? So then the resistance to go becomes the part of like it magnifies the other problem So why won’t he just this and I’ve seen couples do this even with a podcast or a book where they like give their partner this resource saying I need you to listen to this.

[00:21:29] Marie: And the partner hasn’t, or doesn’t want to, or forgets. And the other person is like, see, I’m not important. They can’t even do this. Why won’t they just, whatever. 

And then 

[00:21:38] Marie: they fight about that. And one person, it’s either fighting. Some people are quite vocal, but some people it’s a withdrawal because they’re conflict avoidant.

[00:21:48] Marie: And that’s not necessarily healthy either. There’s this stewing, this feeling of rejection. It’s like, well, if they can’t even do this. Yeah. What does that mean? What do I mean? Am I not important enough? 

Yeah. 

[00:22:02] Marie: So even if one, one partner of the couple brings it up, it’s great if people can actually start to think about, Oh, I didn’t even think that that’s something we needed.

[00:22:15] Marie: Like how do people, and obviously everybody’s different. Every, either couple or relationship structure works very differently and culturally very different. But what are some. Gentle, like how can people start to actually, if one person says I want to go to couple’s therapy, the other’s like, no. 

So I think you’ve actually touched on something really significant, which is that in our relationships, we meaning make.

[00:22:42] Marie: I have no idea what you’re 

talking about. We make meaning of our partners. Can I have a cup of tea? Or what, you 

[00:22:48] Marie: think I can’t get it? 

Right, or Or when they make a tea and they don’t offer you one. Right, you’re not even thinking of me. Or let’s go to therapy. No. Oh, you don’t even care. You don’t love me anymore.

Right? Yeah. So part of couples therapy We’re complex creatures, aren’t we? We are. So I think part of couples therapy is actually, let’s reality check that. Let’s check it out. What does it mean? So I think that, Well, how do you get them there? I think that’s a complex question. Yeah. I think people go when they’re in crisis.

I think they go when it’s bad enough. I think it’s about, you know, and I wonder even as I’m saying it, it’s too simple my response, but I think a big part of it has to be about how do we talk about couples therapy? Mm. How do we talk about therapy? Yeah. What do our kids know about it? Like generationally, How are we engaging in our mental health?

How do we promote it, speak about it? It’s interesting you use a lot of physical kind of analogies. And I think, is it an analogy or a metaphor? I never know, but anyway. One of them. I think that maybe that potentially comes from a place of, because we take our physical health much more seriously, it’s okay to have an injury.

Yeah. Right? Oh, I think it’s different with [00:24:00] disability. It’s easier to say, oh, at the end of the work day, I need to leave at four because I have a dentist appointment. Right? And, and I say that and actually I’m really aware, actually I think it is different if you have a disability, a permanent disability.

If you break your leg, if you have a dentist appointment, I think absolutely I can leave work for those and I can say it very publicly and I don’t have a shame response. I don’t have a, oh, I need to keep this private. I think with therapy, mental health, I think younger people are so much better at this than us.

I say this as an op I think they’re much better at it. I see my clients in their 20s and I see them talking about this as an investment and I don’t hear my friends of my age in their 40s talking about it this way. I do 

[00:24:44] Marie: see that with couples more and more coming to sort of do like a health check.

[00:24:50] Marie: Yeah. They’re just like, Oh, we’re about to, you know, Get married, or we’re thinking of having kids and we just want to kind of check in with each other how that’s going and they Amazing it’s oh, 

it’s great It would have saved my relationship years of difficult Conversations that we kept going around in circles with because I would have had someone there to help us understand what is happening here The no is potentially symptomatic of What is happening in the relationship?

[00:25:16] Marie: There was something we and we were talking about this before we started recording but How we ask for what we need. So I think that’s interesting too of are you saying well We need couples therapy then. Yeah, or are you saying hey, there are a few things that have been bothering me I can’t find the right words and I’d really I’d like us to go or I need us.

[00:25:40] Marie: I need the support because I can’t handle this Will you come with me? Like 

yeah, I 

[00:25:44] Marie: think there’s also the invitation so much in how we ask which again if You If you’re struggling with that already, that’s going to be hard. But again, it’s the symptomatic nature of the issue that you might be wanting to come to therapy with.

[00:25:58] Marie: So can people I’ve recommended this to some folk as well, is you can still go to therapy as an individual. To talk about couple stuff because you can make changes yourself that can change the dynamic 

Oh, 

[00:26:11] Marie: you can talk to a therapist of how can I ask my partner this? 

Hmm, 

[00:26:15] Marie: I would say not and not make meaning of their Response like them saying no Might not be because they hate me or don’t love me They might feel uncomfortable.

[00:26:27] Marie: I might have said, oh, I might have asked them like, would you like to go to couples therapy? And they’re like, 

no, I would not like it. I would not 

[00:26:33] Marie: like to do that. Am I willing? Maybe. It’s that scene that I keep, I keep been talking about of in the imitation game where they’re like, Alan, we’re going out for lunch.

[00:26:41] Marie: And he’s like, okay. And like, We’re going out for lunch. He’s like, fine. They’re like, dude, what’s your problem? We’ve asked you to come for lunch. He’s like, no, you said we’re going out for lunch. 

Yeah. 

[00:26:51] Marie: And he’s like, what are you having? And they’re like, sandwiches. He’s like, oh, I don’t like sandwiches. Have you seen this?

[00:26:56] Marie: Yeah. No, but you’ve told me that. As they walk out, it’s like, all right, who’s hungry? He’s like, I am. Can I have some soup, please? And so it’s in the way we ask, right? So they’re thinking what’s wrong with him? He’s not coming to lunch. And he’s like, They never asked me, they just said, We’re going out to lunch.

[00:27:14] Marie: Yes. So there’s these conversations, right, of saying, Oh, would you like to go to couples therapy? If the partner, it didn’t occur, they’re like, no, I don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t 

want to do that. The difference 

[00:27:24] Marie: saying I’m struggling, I’m finding this difficult and I, I feel like I really need you there with me.

Yeah. 

[00:27:32] Marie: Like there’s a difference in how we ask. For sure. It’s the 

language. It’s, and again, it’s about oh, sorry, just to go back from what you did say. Absolutely. I have lots and lots and lots of individual clients. That are in couples therapy and generally have done that after we’ve entered our therapy relationship.

It’s been encouraged by me that there is work in the relationship that we can’t do. We can absolutely check out what’s happening for [00:28:00] you. And I can with you explore and deepen our understanding of the meaning you’re making and where that comes from and to slow it down so that there’s space before you jump into the, that’s true.

We can check it out. Actually, is it true for your partner? that they don’t care or are they scared? You know, is it true that they think you’re you know, incompetent and that’s why they’re asking for the water or is they saying, I love you? Yeah. You know, like we can do that work, but there is also something in the relationship that can only be done with the relationship, the couple.

[00:28:35] Marie: And you can say, and one of the tools we use in in using the Gottman method is actually getting people to re. Not reenact, but bring up a difficult topic and actually see how they handle either conflict or a fight live. So we can actually make, like, with permission, saying, can I pause you there? I notice you did it.

[00:28:57] Marie: Like, really actually unpack 

that. Yeah, what’s happening now? What are you feeling? Look, I love that you might, in the Gottman approach, kind of bring that in. Yeah. My experience is, it always comes up , 

[00:29:10] Marie: you know? Yeah. You don’t have to 

intentionally do it. I don’t have to intentionally invite it. No, it it tends to.

Absolutely. ’cause you can’t, the relationship is also in the room. Yes. So how you are together will ultimately emerge and it becomes live. Yeah. And in those moments where it’s alive, we are absolutely best in that experience to go, yeah. What is happening? We’re no longer an observer reflecting. It’s happening.

It’s happening. 

[00:29:32] Marie: I’ve had, have I told you my idea of IKEA 

couples therapy? No, but I feel scared when I think about it. I would love, and you know, if you’re listening 

[00:29:42] Marie: and you want to sponsor this, feel free, but I think that, that would be such a good way to see how someone communicates, is actually putting furniture together.

[00:29:50] Marie: Putting furniture together. And I might test it out one day when I get some flat pack. He’s actually bringing, A couple together, because you do this in team building events, right? We say this in so many, I’m saying, okay, here is this flat pack bookcase. And we’ve got, Seventy five minutes together.

[00:30:07] Marie: Put it together and see how, who takes charge, what happens, how you, and actually talk about it. Like who gets huffy and puffy? Do you collaborate? Do you walk together, work together? Does someone pull like, we, we get to see that happen, right? I think 

it’s in the gestalt world, we would call that an experiment.

Yeah. And I think it’s a great experiment. So next time 

[00:30:28] Marie: I buy some furniture, I’ll just leave it. But I do this on a smaller scale with with, with kids, right? When we’re doing kind of play therapy, it’s, it’s playing board games and what happens when you lose or don’t get your way. Like you have to see it.

[00:30:41] Marie: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s a whole new technique and I’d love to research this more. 

Well, honestly, I think, you know, from a gestalt lens, that is part of the way we do therapy, which is with the experiments, we make something alive because in that moment you are in it, you, you are deeply feeling and experiencing it.

[00:31:00] Marie: Yeah. How can we, what’s some, again, and this is, you know, not personalised advice, so if you’re, this is brought up things for you, just think of professional. Absolutely. Where can people start? Like, how do they, what can they do? 

Well, I think, you know, I probably feel a bit repetitive here. I think it’s about reflecting and trying to have conversations and reading or watching.

And if you can see a therapist, see someone who can help navigate this with you. It’s very hard when you’re in something to navigate it without falling back and regressing to the way you’ve always done it. Okay. 

[00:31:47] Marie: What what do you tell people to look for? Because if you refer someone, and I’ve done this with, if I’m already seeing an individual, I then don’t do couples therapy with them.

[00:31:55] Marie: I might bring a partner in for a specific way to support that person, but it’s not [00:32:00] couples therapy. It’s more like, hey, you know, can you bring your partner in and let’s just talk about how we can help you with XYZ at home. Sure. What can they look out for? Because couples therapy, there is, I mean, there’s hundreds of different hundreds, but there’s EMARGO, Emotionally Focused Therapy, Real Life Therapy, which is Terry Reels Esteparel, for example, is quite eclectic, and the Family Systems, there’s the Gottmans, then there’s probably several others that I can’t remember off the top of my head, but there’s so many.

Yeah, it’s hard. 

[00:32:26] Marie: And like, what can you start, and then there’s sex therapy, so some people work quite Specifically in that, there’s therapy at different, like there’s people who specialize in working with Neurodiversity or with disability or cross cultural. Yeah What are some things that people can start to, what do you recommend that they sort of look for if they’re like I don’t even know where to start.

[00:32:48] Marie: Yeah, I’ll just Google couples therapy in my area. 

Yeah I mean if I think about myself, I personally am always drawn to relational therapy based therapies. Like a most 

[00:33:01] Marie: emotionally focused. Emotionally 

focused or, or anything that’s relational in its nature. Like this is about a relationship, whether it’s individually, it’s the relationship you have with yourself or others, couples.

All of them have that element, 

[00:33:14] Marie: really, I think. 

Well, I don’t know. Some can be strategy based. And I think there’s a place for symptom management where strategies are helpful. Yeah. I think often it is really about Trying therapists on. So when I see anyone, whether it’s as a couple or individuals, the first session, I say, this is as much of an interview for me as it is for you.

Like, sit with me, see what it feels like. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s okay. When we meet people, we are not drawn to every single person we meet. Yeah. Right? So this is intimate work. If you do not feel safe, connected, held by me in an emotional sense, like where you feel like, Oh, she gets me, or I feel comfortable here, then I’m probably not the therapist for you.

[00:34:06] Marie: Where’s the line? And I talked about this in a previous episode with Lillian, when we were talking about worry and finding a therapist for anxiety. There’s a point where. It’s going to be awkward and uncomfortable. Sure, it’s hard. And you want to give it more than maybe the first date. So how do you differentiate which, oh, this is just awkward because it’s therapy versus this person’s a bad fit for me because we want to have some what we call like resilient help seeking, like it’s okay to let the therapist know.

[00:34:36] Marie: The session went too fast. Can we slow it down? Or I find it really helpful if you write down like some things that they can do you. There might be ways they can adjust their approach. Versus they were racist or homophobic or I felt really judged, something they said, like how do we kind of differentiate the, this was just an awkward experience and we can Find ways to work together well, versus that was, that was a really shit experience and you just are not equipped to handle this.

Mm hmm. I mean, I’m interested how you have known for yourself. I think for me, I would encourage people, you know, I talk about therapy, it’s work. It’s not for the faint hearted. Like I am absolutely always amazed by the courage and strength of my clients just walking through the door because it’s work.

It’s hard. Yeah. I think it’s worth it though. But so I think that there is about, even when I talk about the fit with me, as an example, there is a difference between, did this feel hard? Versus, is there something about me as we’re sitting here that doesn’t feel right? If it feels hard, well, if you’re willing to do, it’s going to be hard, whether it’s me or someone else.

But it’s about how did it feel to sit with me? When I go to a [00:36:00] dinner party, I mean, I don’t know how fancy I’m going to these dinner parties, but if I’m sitting at a table, a dinner party and there’s 12 people there, I am going to attract to certain people. Yeah. I, and I trust that. That’s my intuition.

That’s my sense of, yeah, there feels like there can be something here that feels good or safe or interesting to me. Same with your therapist, I think. 

[00:36:20] Marie: I think with couples work, it’s hard. It’s a little bit harder because you both want to try and feel comfortable. 

Yeah. 

[00:36:26] Marie: And there’s, if, especially if you’re.

[00:36:28] Marie: the partner who was maybe a bit unsure or resistant to come. If you’re coming in already expecting to be told off, there’s almost no therapist, like there’s going to be no one that will, like, it’s going to be really hard for anybody to get through. So there’s checking in with your own expectations and how you’re coming across.

[00:36:49] Marie: Because if you’re coming in while like, well, we’ve tried four other people and you’ve come highly recommended. So give us what you’ve got, give us your best stuff. If someone comes in with that, and then the other partner’s like, see, how do I even deal with them? Look at, and then they start like, yeah.

[00:37:05] Marie: That’s really hard to start, like, and it happens. 

Absolutely. So on that, if I’m just to think about that example, I think the therapist that’s right for you is able to explore what is happening for you in that time. That the therapist has the skill and the ability to deepen what is the experience and what are the expectations you have.

Where do they come from? How are they showing up here with me? And then how does that come about in the relationship? To me, that would be the skill of the therapist, right? If you’ve got a therapist that then is responding to that with their arms crossed, going, Oh, wow, da da da da da. Not the therapist for you, because something’s been activated in that therapist.

So I think it’s about understanding that therapy might not be comfortable. Right. So maybe get rid of that. And actually enter it and go, Get But how do I feel with you? Good. Do I like you and not like what you did? Or do I not like you? Right, yeah. There’s a difference, I think. Yeah. But I think it’s up to the therapist and the skill of the therapist to, in that space, to really kind of explore and understand, well, what is this like for you?

Yeah. What is happening for you? How is that, what is it that I’m doing that might be activating that for you? Yeah. 

[00:38:25] Marie: So I guess at, at the end of all of this, it’s hopefully it’s de stigmatised it a little bit. Yeah. But I guess some of the key takeaways is don’t mean, try not to meaning make. So if your partner says no, don’t make assumptions.

Well, maybe even a step back from that is just notice. Okay. Like, because I think that’s another step. I think even noticing, oh, I’m making a meaning here. Right. I’m attaching meaning to this. And everyone, we all do. Everyone. Or meaning always we make meaning based on our lived experience. Yeah. And notice, just notice it in the first sense and check it out.

So what meaning do I make? Yeah. And then you can check it out later when you’ve built that. 

[00:39:06] Marie: So it’s noticing what meaning you make and maybe in lots of areas in your relation, maybe choose a an an easier example. Yeah. Cup of tea. What, what do I, what meaning do I make? 

Yeah. 

[00:39:16] Marie: How you ask for what you need.

[00:39:19] Marie: Mm-Hmm. . And then how do you even know what you need? Yeah, 

how do you ask for it? 

[00:39:25] Marie: So there’s some good steps and if your partner’s the one who’s asked you and you’ve said no How maybe revisiting that and saying hey a while back you mentioned this Can I ask is it still something on your mind or was this?

[00:39:39] Marie: Yeah. A request. Like, can we, like, tell me more. Be curious. Be curious, not 

critical. That’s gonna be your, that’s my catchphrase. That’s my catchphrase. Be curious, not critical. Yeah. And that extends not only inward.

[00:39:56] Marie: For some people it’s activating and quite hard, so by [00:40:00] activating, you know, flooded or overwhelmed or withdrawn, like, it creates a physiological That’s the bit you can also talk to your individual therapist about. Absolutely. Or a friend, or like, there’s so many ways to start saying, Hey, I actually find it hard to ask my partner this.

[00:40:18] Marie: I get flooded or overwhelmed, or I feel not good enough, or I feel like I’m going to get told off. Like, check out our earlier episode of Not Feeling Good Enough, because these are all intertwined. Absolutely. And most of the couples that I work with. And then I might need to work on, you know, if we’re talking about communication and one gets flooded, then they, we might be able to do a little bit of that in the room, but then I might recommend, Hey, this would be really great if you can work on that with your therapist to learn some tools and strategies and understand why you get flooded, 

what 

[00:40:54] Marie: happens for you.

[00:40:55] Marie: So then we can bring that skill back into this relationship. So, you might. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[00:41:10] Marie: I know nothing about couples therapy. I don’t know where to start. It’s overwhelming. It’s stigmatizing. 

Yeah. Read people’s bios. Look at people’s pictures. You know, get a sense of potential therapists and then try them out. Sure. Sit with them. I often will try out a new therapist for myself. And I’ll say that.

I’m going to try you out for a couple of sessions if that’s okay. I just want to see what it’s like to sit with you. 

[00:41:33] Marie: I would add to that, ask as well. Sure. Or even check what things they work with. Yes, their philosophies. Philosophies, but also different areas of specialty or interest. So if it is recovering after an affair.

[00:41:46] Marie: Yeah. That might be a very different skill set to support after the, a miscarriage. For sure. Or grief. It could be. Birth of a first child. Yeah. Parenting. So. Yeah. Yeah. Not all. We don’t all, like we have some generalist skills, but like with physical health, you might need a gastroenterologist for one thing, a urologist for like a rate, like we have different specialties within that.

[00:42:10] Marie: Even within let’s say the Gottman therapy, there might be someone who does extra work in same sex couples or extra work with polyamory or has extra training in sexual health or sexual intimacy, different life stages, recovering from cancer diagnosis. So maybe looking at, at that as well and just sort of see are there any particular things happening for us that we want someone to know about?

I think that is really good advice. 

[00:42:40] Marie: And even just for individual therapy too, like, and being okay with not one therapist might be. For all of that you might have an episode of what we call an episode of care like you might have a season of I want to work with this therapist on my self esteem and then maybe after a year or two you’re like, well now I’m actually you know Working on grief and I might move on to something like no one person might be and that’s okay It doesn’t mean you failed.

I think that in my experience of therapy, I have the same therapist for a couple of years and then I move to a new therapist. Because not one person ever in your life will meet all your needs. Oh, that’s nice. And same as these therapists. I feel a sense of satisfaction and completion when my clients and I end well.

Where we say, we’ve done the work we can do. Yep. And I With a lot of genuine care, send them out and then potentially to someone new that we have finished well. So be curious. Curious, not critical. 

[00:43:49] Marie: Curious, not critical. I love 

that.