Marie Vakakis: [00:00:00] Hi, it’s Marie here from the Inside Social Work podcast. I’m currently taking a break from podcasting to get ready for 2022. And in the meantime, I wanted to share some of my favorite episodes as on cause in today’s episode. Uh, this was an interview I did with Dr. Claire Kelly, and I thought it was really timely for mental health month.

So October Is mental health month and Claire, uh, talks about mental health first aid and the development of the mental health first aid program, as well as sharing some of her tips on how to have a conversation with somebody whose mental health you’re perhaps worried about. It’s a really interesting episode and there are some really great resources that you can access in the show notes if you’re interested.

Now, I would like to encourage you to listen through the episode to the end, and there’ll be a couple of special promos if you want to attend a mental health first aid course [00:01:00] that I’m running. Um, there’ll be a special promo code and early bird discount for you there. Please, if you enjoy this, uh, podcast series, please subscribe.

Feel free to leave a rating or review. It really helps other people find the podcast and, um, yeah, get in touch. You can find me on LinkedIn, uh, on Instagram under, or as Mariva Karkis. And we have the Inside Social Work Facebook group as well. All right. Enjoy.

In today’s episode, I’m chatting with Dr. Claire Kelly, the Manager of Research and Evaluation at Mental Health First Aid Australia. This is something I’m super passionate about. As most of you might know from hearing my podcast, I’m really passionate about mental health. I work in the field. Uh, I’m a mental health first aid instructor myself and I really love delivering the training and helping people understand what mental health is, what to look out for that might indicate someone is, [00:02:00] is not coping, is maybe struggling with their mental health and how to support them.

So how to have that really difficult conversation. And there are a whole bunch of courses available across Australia and internationally, which is super exciting. So if you want to find out more, uh, or you want to find an instructor in your area, uh, if you’re in Australia, you can go to the mhfa. com. au, and there you’ll find a list of resources, you’ll find some instructors and some courses, and you can join my mailing list.

So go to the Inside Social Work podcast website, uh, click on subscribe. Join the mailing list and you’ll get a mail out of any courses I’m running to the public across Victoria, uh, and a whole bunch of other stuff. So I hope you enjoy this episode. We talk about, uh, some of the statistics surrounding mental health and mental illness, some of the potential red flags and things to look out for that might indicate someone is struggling.

And we share some stories around how to look after our own mental health and wellbeing. So we know that that’s really important, uh, to prevent [00:03:00] burnout and to keep us well. So thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy this episode with Claire. Hello, and welcome to the Inside Social Work podcast, where we take a peek behind the scenes into different fields of social work, engage and inspire practitioners, translate research into practice, and encourage lifelong learning.

I’m your host, Claire. for listening, and I hope you enjoyed today’s podcast episode. I’m here with Dr. Claire Kelly. Claire is the Manager of Research and Evaluation at Mental Health First Aid Australia. She’s been involved with MHFA since 2003, when she first became an instructor while completing her doctorate at the Centre of Mental Health and Research at the Australian University in Canberra, where the program was first developed.

Prior to her current position, Claire worked on the MHFA guidelines used to inform the MHFA courses. Claire’s PhD thesis was written on the mental health literacy of Australian adolescents. Her main [00:04:00] passion is the mental health of young people and minimizing the impacts that mental health problems can have on development, educational outcomes and long term functioning.

Claire has suffered episodes of depression and anxiety since adolescence, which has also been a driver for this work. Welcome to the podcast podcast Claire. Hi, it’s very 

Claire Kelly: nice 

Marie Vakakis: to be 

Claire Kelly: here. 

Marie Vakakis: Um, so before we get started I guess I want to get your get your tips on how do we clarify the difference between mental health and mental illness?

I think often they’re used interchangeably So it’d be really helpful if we can start off with maybe how you differentiate between the 

Claire Kelly: two Definitely. I think it’s really funny when you ask people what? You Mental health means to them, they often go straight to a definition of mental illness. Uh, mental health is like health, it’s a continuum.

We, you can have good health, or poor health. You can have, uh, an illness and have it well managed without it being, uh, [00:05:00] Without actually having poor health as a result, and it’s the same with mental health. So mental health is really about, uh, the, the degree to which a person is able to function, uh, enjoy their relationships, to, uh, contribute in the community and in their work.

And, uh, mental illnesses are specific diagnosable illnesses, which, uh, impact on their functioning and their thoughts, feelings, and behavior. 

Marie Vakakis: Wonderful, thanks for that. So, if we could compare it, like, how would we compare it to a physical health condition? What would be an example of, you’ve got maybe a diagnosis of something, but then it’s well managed.

Does that then mean you’re in good mental health? If you’re still functioning and doing all those things? 

Claire Kelly: You know, it’s certainly possible. Um, there are definitely mental illnesses that have a far greater impact on a person’s functioning across their entire lifespan. Something like schizophrenia, which if it is severe, if it is not [00:06:00] well managed, is likely to actually continue to get worse over time.

Uh, but then there are certainly people like myself who have long term mental health issues. illnesses of depression and anxiety who may be well most of the time and whether that is with medication management in the long term, whether it’s about continuing with psychological therapies and definitely involves a lot of self care of whatever sort seems to work the best.

And I think that that is actually really pretty similar to a lot of health conditions because while some of them Uh, something that you might actually recover fully from and there’s no, no impact at all. A lot of health conditions are things that need long term management and when people don’t manage them well, [00:07:00] that’s when they’re more likely to actually become quite ill again.

Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So yeah. So you’ve got that chronic period or some can be quite acute and then chronic underneath. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sometimes I use the analogy with people where You can almost, you can become stronger as a result of an episode of poor mental health where, you know, use the example of perhaps if you twist an ankle and with all the physiotherapy you do and you might then get into some Pilates or yoga or something else and you might strengthen that ankle to be stronger than it ever was.

Claire Kelly: Yeah, yeah. Look, I think as well, uh, there’s certainly been some evidence that people who’ve experienced mental illness have, um, very high levels of compassion and empathy. So a lot of people will actually come out at the other end, you know, in the long term, even if the illness recurs again later, with a great deal of empathy for people around them and be much more likely to actually reach out and offer somebody else some help.

I’m 

Marie Vakakis: [00:08:00] glad you said that because I think often when we talk about mental illness, it’s, it’s a bit doom and gloom and very rarely do we talk about kind of either post traumatic growth or the, the, the skills that you can learn after a period of illness. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, I think, uh, Do you know about the Japanese, I can’t remember what they call it, there’s this style of repairing things, where instead of just gluing them together and trying to make it invisible, they use gold?

Yeah, I’ve heard of that. I just, sometimes I think that, you know, these sorts of experiences are a little bit like that. They actually create something. New and and unique and and maybe even a little bit more beautiful 

Marie Vakakis: So I want to focus just for a bit on some of the stats So we’ve got sort of one in four young people between the ages of 15 and 25 will develop a mental health Disorder in a 12 month period.

Claire Kelly: Yes. 

Marie Vakakis: Yes, and then about one in five for adults. Yes, that’s right. Yep So let’s talk about Like any other [00:09:00] sickness, it can result in missed days of schoolwork, um, things left undone. But I guess one of the things for that age group is we know they’re at high risk, but they’re less likely to seek help for it.

So what are some of the barriers of help seeking? And I think you studied that quite a bit in your PhD where you looked at some of that. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, do you know, I mean, we can say that at any age, people are far less likely to seek help. Just. on their own. Um, and there’s actually, you know, over the years there’s been so much research on how do we promote help seeking and none of it’s been particularly successful.

Um, so what we tend to need is for someone in our close circle, group, you know, a family member or a very close friend, someone who we believe really cares for us, someone who we believe has a little bit of knowledge, uh, who will actually say, Hey, I think you need to get help. So young people are less likely to have somebody around who [00:10:00] knows something about mental illness and can encourage help.

So, during youth, we expect people to change. We see changes in focus, we see changes in mood, we even see significant physical changes over time, and it can be really hard to distinguish between, you know, what is a, what are genuinely symptoms of mental illness and what is It’s simply the growth period of youth.

Uh, if somebody is very withdrawn, we’re not seeing as much of them, then it could be that they are actually withdrawn, that they’re not seeing anybody at all. Or it could be that they’re just, They have no interest in hanging out with family and they only want to talk to their friends. So, uh, so it can be quite tricky, I think, for people to recognize what’s really going on.

And as well as that, young people, while they actually have lower levels of stigmatizing attitudes about others, [00:11:00] will actually say very explicitly in research that they’re not, if they had a friend who was depressed, they’d help them out, etc. Uh, when we ask about what that means. they themselves would do, that’s like, oh no, I handle it by myself.

So this is, there’s this real feeling, I think, it’s strange really, but when we know that one in four each year has a mental illness, there is this strange feeling of, it’s only me, I’m the only one who’s not coping and I need to. I don’t know, pull my socks up. Never understood the relationship between socks and mental health, but it’s one that comes up, isn’t it?

Yeah, and I 

Marie Vakakis: definitely see that working a lot with young people, um, that it’s often the, either I didn’t know that there was something that could be done different, so they’re kind of like, I just thought this was the way it was, and everybody feels this way, or it’s that, I should be able to cope maybe, you know, comparing themselves to others of my life’s not as bad or what have I got to worry about and just really not [00:12:00] understanding that.

They can still get that support. And even if it doesn’t reach the threshold for a full blown mental illness, you can still learn some tools to cope with daily challenges of life. And there’s, like you said, there’s all that growth, all that development. And then there’s changes from high school to from primary school to high school.

Then there’s choosing subjects. And then there’s the idea of, do I go to work, to TAFE, to uni? Like they’re all big life decisions and they can be quite taxing even without mental health problem. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So what are, particularly for young people, what are some of the additional impacts of not getting treatment early?

Oh, 

Claire Kelly: look, there’s so many of them. They might not get the sorts of grades at school that they should have, you know, that they are capable of. And certainly not to say that that’s the most important thing in the world, but for some kids, it is really, really important, you know, impacts on what sort of study they can do later on.

Um, it, [00:13:00] there could actually be impacts on physical development. So particularly where someone has say an eating disorder and is not. eating good foods in the right quantities, or if somebody is depressed and has no appetite, and most especially if somebody is using substances that they shouldn’t, the impact on brain development can be quite profound.

Um, so, uh, yeah, so physical, educational, social, you know, this is the age where people are figuring out who their lifelong friends are going to be. You know, they, uh, I think we probably all have memories of, of people who we befriended in that, in, in youth, where We thought that we’d be friends forever and and whether we were or not they became a blueprint for what we might do later on 

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, so there’s all early kind of [00:14:00] formative relationship skills So, oh, yeah, if you like the example you used before if someone’s withdrawn and they’re they’re not withdrawn from their family Just because they they’ve decided their family’s dagging.

They don’t want to hang out But they they’ve withdrawn because they’re not they’re not coping with life or they’re not feeling well, then they’re missing out on You Building friendships and 

Claire Kelly: you know, you know 

Marie Vakakis: things like school camps or excursions or those extracurricular things that build those memories as well 

Claire Kelly: absolutely, and you know when we talk about being withdrawn let’s Build that even further Would if you are withdrawn it’s much less likely that someone who knows you and cares about you is going to be able to say Hey, I’m, I’m concerned because you’re just physically not there.

Yeah. That’s quite a tough one. It is really tough. And I think, you know, it’s, uh, I always say that the only thing tougher than being a young person with a mental illness that’s having that sort of profound impact is being a young person with a mental illness like that, [00:15:00] who is also very lonely. 

Marie Vakakis: I don’t, um, unfortunately, I don’t think that that’s.

An isolated incident, I think that’s quite common. No, not at all. Because it happens kind of accidentally, where if you stop going to, to your sports or to your hobbies, or if you’re in a casual job and you knock back a few shifts, it might take a little while for people to notice because you’re not physically around them.

Claire Kelly: Yep, absolutely. And, in the meantime, because they can’t see you, it can be easy, I’ll look. No, no work commitment. No work ethic, whatever. Or he just thinks he’s too good for us. He’s a crappy friend, hasn’t gotten back to us. Yeah, exactly. And in the meantime, the person is starting to feel more and more like it’s not okay to even try to reach out.

Marie Vakakis: So it kind of goes well into my next question. So mental health first aid discusses some of the potential kind of red flags or what to look out for for mental health. Um, that might indicate someone struggling with their mental health and some strategies for manage that initial support of friends, family and colleagues, um, and [00:16:00] how to kind of get information and obtain immediate help if necessary.

Can you talk a bit about what are some of the skills or what somebody walk, walking out of the, either the standard 14 hour youth, the youth 14 hour class or the standard one, what are they educated or trained to do specifically? 

Claire Kelly: Now, I’m actually going to ask that question. I’ll say that question first by saying, uh, what it’s not going to teach them.

It doesn’t teach you counselling skills. It doesn’t make it possible to diagnose a mental illness. What it does is give you some education around the. clusters of symptoms that you might see if somebody is experiencing a mental illness, uh, how to potentially identify that a person is in genuine crisis.

So, you know, exactly what that looks like is going to vary enormously from illness to illness, but I actually like to just keep it really super simple and just say that if you’ve seen [00:17:00] major changes in a person’s thinking, feeling, and behaviour, Uh, negative changes, uh, if it appears to be having an impact on their ability to function, uh, to enjoy relationships, to work, to study, whatever it might be, uh, and it’s lasted longer than a couple of weeks, then they’re in need of help.

And I think that that’s one of the key things that people attending a mental health first aid course, uh, Walk out with, you know, that it’s not going to make things worse, that it’s okay to have these conversations. I think so often people really, really care and they don’t take that next step because they’re afraid that they’re going to make things worse, that it’s going to make things awkward, that they’re going to, Oh gosh, I don’t know.

It’s, it’s like, 

Marie Vakakis: I think that’s exactly like I just ran a course last week and that’s something that comes up so often is. But I’m scared I’ll make things worse. And, you know, trying to reassure [00:18:00] people that it’s completely okay to say to someone, to start that conversation and say, Look, I, that’s a lot more than I’m trained to deal with, or I’m not the right person, but I’ll help you find them.

So you don’t have to have the answer, but just letting that person know that, you know, and we would do the same with a physical injury. Like if someone was limping around, you’d be like, Um, you know, I can’t, I don’t have x ray vision. I can’t see, but it looks like you might want to rest that foot and go see some professional.

Claire Kelly: Yeah. I, I, sometimes I think that there’s, you know, I’m sure I’m not the only one who was raised not to be nosy. And I think that, you know, when it comes to physical illness, if somebody was bleeding or had a broken ankle or, you know, was limping around, like you said, with a twisted ankle, then, yeah, we, we feel like that’s okay to say something about, but a mental illness feels too much like a person’s personal life.

And it’s just not the way if somebody is really struggling, they, [00:19:00] they need some support. And, you know, You don’t know if they’ve got any support. So you need to take those steps. 

Marie Vakakis: I think it’s interesting that you say no, being nosy. Cause I, I can see that being one of the fears, but it’s also, maybe it talks to that point where people also, you know, thought it’s a private thing or we do with this at home or, you know, it’s none of anyone else’s business and it can leave people feeling like they, They don’t know who to trust, or they don’t know how to connect with someone.

And then if they feel like that maybe for themselves, then perhaps that’s a barrier for them to say, I don’t know how to approach that person, maybe they can deal with that. They kind of don’t know. Okay, so you leave the course kind of with that, um, idea of, Some identifying some clusters of symptoms and knowing when someone’s in a crisis and how to have that conversation Any other key tips for those listening who may be thinking about doing the course?

How does that complement existing? Qualification so if we’ve got some graduate social workers or potentially other [00:20:00] allied health Um, professionals, how is that the mental health first aid course different to what they might learn? 

Claire Kelly: Oh, okay. Over a tertiary 

Marie Vakakis: setting. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, look, absolutely. Um, there’s a comparison that I like to make sometimes where, uh, you know, you might be a highly qualified nurse in, say, a surgical setting, okay, so you know exactly what to do when somebody is under the knife, but that doesn’t mean that your first aid skills when somebody gets knocked over by a car.

Are the same. You know, and it’s the same. You might be a, oh, let’s make it even worse. You might be a huge Cardiothoracic surgeon who knows their stuff really, really well. But unless you can remember the, the, you know, initial steps to getting somebody, You know, when you don’t yet have your surgery in front of you and the person is literally sort of falling over, it’s different.

First aid is different from knowing how to manage things. So, uh, I think there’s a couple of different things. One [00:21:00] of them is that it is going to help you to sort of walk away feeling like there is a, a plan in place before any kind of real work needs to be done. That it’s about initially just connecting to someone, you know, it’s very unusual for someone to be first recognised as potentially having a mental health problem.

By any kind of clinical expert, you know, it’s, uh, you don’t have your first crisis in front of a psychologist. It just doesn’t work like that. So, uh, being able to recognize what’s going on and help people to get to the right place is important. The other thing I think, you know, so many people attend a mental health first aid course with this idea that this is all about their work.

Uh, the people that they’re going to connect with, uh, day to day, that their work is going to put them face to face with. And I think particularly people who are social workers, nurses, [00:22:00] allied health, they’ve got that, that feeling and they will always work really hard to help somebody in their job field.

And they, they’re going to do the right thing there, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to home. And you can’t, sometimes you, well, not even sometimes, a lot of the time, the person that you’re going to help is, is a friend or a family member, um, who you’re concerned about. And suddenly, whoa, all that clinical training is just, it’s not useful.

And it also doesn’t feel relevant because all you can think about is, you know, This is somebody that I love. 

Marie Vakakis: I think that’s such a key point because often when I have, um, professionals come in, the examples that come to mind the most for them is a niece, a nephew, or a child of theirs. When they think, this would be, this is so much more easy to scaffold with the, with the kind of structure of the mental health course than just using my professional experience.[00:23:00] 

It’s like, okay, I kind of know what to do. And if I’m their parent, I might not be able to do much more because they might not want to talk to me, but I can get them here. Like, I get what you’re saying around. Your professional thing kind of flies out the window sometimes and you almost need a really basic concrete.

Claire Kelly: You do. Like when you’re doing CPR 

Marie Vakakis: and sometimes you, you practice doing it to the dummy to like the tune of a, of a song and you’re like, okay, I need, I need. Stand 

Claire Kelly: light, 

Marie Vakakis: stand light. We did Baa Baa Black Sheep.

Claire Kelly: Um, no, I think as well, you know, if you, particularly if you say talking about your own kids, you know, I, I know plenty of psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers who say they can tell when you’re using your professional skills and they just hate it now, but if you just have an honest, open conversation.

That’s really genuine, that shows, hey, I’m concerned about you, and I want to help, and I’m here, and it’s okay to ask for help, it’s okay to talk about all of this stuff. Suddenly you’re operating at a completely different level. Yeah, I [00:24:00] agree. 

Marie Vakakis: So, would you recommend that, um, that kind of early career social workers consider doing the course, or consider even being a facilitator?

What are some of the tips you have about what direction to take it in? 

Claire Kelly: Oh my gosh. Look, I think I might sound just a little bit biased, but I think that every single person should attend a mental health first aid course in the same way that I think that every single person should attend a first aid course.

Uh, but when thinking about, uh, someone who might be early career social work, I think that it is really important. It’s going to be quite a different set of skills to anything that you’ve covered in mental health in actual curriculum. Um, But, my goodness, if you’ve got a passion for mental health, come along, become an instructor.

I mean, I think that, uh, You know, in, in a way, people like social workers and occupational therapists who have, who are very much about solving, you know, finding the right [00:25:00] thing, just very practical, pragmatic people who are also perfectly chill just to sit and chat, I think are some of the, you know, really strong candidates for mental health first aid instructor training.

Uh, there’s, they’re not necessarily as driven to, you know, Treat someone so much as just be there and support. 

Marie Vakakis: Mm. So we’ve got, um, there are three main courses that people can choose from depending on either their interests or their client groups. We’ve got the youth. Course the standard and mental health first aid for older persons.

Yeah, so they would be your kind of three basic ones 

Claire Kelly: Actually, we’ll even say four because the Aboriginal course is another flagship course. Yeah Yeah, 

Marie Vakakis: wonderful, 

Claire Kelly: and they’re all two day courses. Well, potentially they’re they certainly they’re between 12 and 14 hours It usually happens over two days but it can be four sessions over four weeks or over two weeks or something like that, which is a And [00:26:00] Very nice way to sort of build up skills over time and 

Marie Vakakis: cool.

And I’ll put in the show notes, the link to the, um, instructor list on the MHFA website. So if people are interested, they can either look for an instructor and get them to run a session in their organization or see what’s kind of being run, um, out to the public. So I want to touch on a little bit on the, the, Working with young people again.

So they’re the group less likely to seek help and one of the newest courses is the teen mental health first aid course. So unlike other courses, this one’s a peer looking out for peers one. So can you talk about some of the research underway or some of the kind of the key things that led to the development of this course?

Claire Kelly: Sure, absolutely. Look, I think one of the things that really led to the development It was actually an interesting finding from my PhD research that said that young people, adolescents, who had a mental illness, or who had, Um, very high [00:27:00] scores on psychological distress and emotional difficulties were much more likely than others to offer support to a peer and also much less likely to get an adult involved.

Whereas the kids with better mental health were less likely to offer help, but more likely to get an adult involved if they thought that there was something really serious going on. And there’s been so much research over the last sort of 20 years that says that a lot of young people are already providing.

Really inappropriate levels of support to each other and you know, it’s important to be there as a friend But at the same time, you know gosh in the team course is a Analogy that I like to make that, you know, I I really love my friends. I care so much about my friends. And if one of my friends had a terrible, terrible toothache, uh, and my two options are grab a pair of pliers, let them know that I care so much that I’m going to pull out that tooth, or make sure that they get to the best possible dentist.

You know, so they’re offering [00:28:00] really high levels of support to each other now and it’s potentially at risk to their own mental health and not very effective support. So the teen program was really all about, uh, the, I think the question that we asked in the, the guidelines research was what is the minimum amount that you would want every young person to know?

in order to be able to support their friends. So we, we actually cover things that, gosh, courses historically have been really, really reluctant to cover. Um, so for example, you know, we still get schools that say, Oh, you can’t talk about suicide. And we say, well, if we can’t talk about suicide, then they can’t talk about suicide.

Which means that if they’re having thoughts of suicide, they don’t feel like it’s okay to mention it. So the teen program, uh, really offers skills to know when you must get an adult. involved, uh, good language around offering support, those sorts of things. It’s actually been a [00:29:00] very, very exciting week for the teen program.

Um, I don’t know if you’ve seen the news, but Lady Gaga in, in the States has, uh, been, has actually contributed really significant, uh, both financial and I guess, ambassadorial support for the program. She wants every kid in America to have access to it. So there’s been some really terrific news coverage over that in the last week, just the last few days.

Marie Vakakis: I’m happy for them to fly me over if they want some additional instructors, cause I’m sure they don’t have enough there. Hmm. 

Claire Kelly: Oh, absolutely. Sure. So it’s really interesting what you talk about 

Marie Vakakis: that language. Cause it’s so true that if we don’t, if we make it not okay to talk about, then it’s going to add to that stigma and it adds to that fear.

Um, and then it makes that kind of isolated and hiding in, in places where people are like, I’ve got to keep this to myself because it’s clearly not okay. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, yeah, because I’m going to be a burden on other people, because people are going to think that I’m weak. There’s a thousand reasons and none of them are good.[00:30:00] 

Marie Vakakis: And it’s really well received. I mean, having run quite a few myself, like kids get a little bit silly when you have a, you know, an incursion and it’s someone new, but they take the content really seriously and they all can resonate with it because it’s, They all know someone who’s said something to them, even if they haven’t said it, even if they’ve never told anybody, you can see, you know, through the discussions or through the worksheets or whatever they’re doing that they know, they know someone who’s, who’s had that thought or said something or who’s, they’ve just been worried about, 

Claire Kelly: and you 

Marie Vakakis: can see almost a bit of relief of talking about it kind of normalizes it and makes them feel like, They can then ask someone else for that help.

Claire Kelly: Absolutely. It’s huge. I mean, you know, there’s part of me that sort of thinks when I run courses for adults, you see some of those same changes, you know, that they’re thinking, Oh my God, it’s okay to talk about this. Or they’re thinking back on a moment in their own past where they just wish that somebody had had those skills.

And to me, in [00:31:00] adulthood, like so much damage has already been done. And if we can get them as teenagers and say, Hey, it’s okay to have this conversation. How much of a better outcome are we likely to have? Yeah, absolutely. 

Marie Vakakis: It’s 

Claire Kelly: tremendously exciting. One of the 

Marie Vakakis: questions I get asked often, and I’d love to hear what some of your responses are, but what are some of the tips you have for helping someone who doesn’t want to help?

Love 

Claire Kelly: this. Uh, first of all, I think that sometimes it’s a matter of you’re just not the right person, you know, and that’s okay. And it’s not personal. There are a thousand reasons why it might be that they care so much about you that they want to seem really strong and impressive around you. It could be that there are gender or cultural reasons why they don’t want to.

Um, I think that sometimes we accidentally use language, which can be quite alienating. So for example, say I’m offering support to a young woman and I say, [00:32:00] Uh, and I’m trying to find out what sort of resources she’s got for support and I ask her if she’s got a boyfriend. Okay, now if she’s a lesbian, she’s gonna feel like, oh, it’s not okay for me to be like this, so, and, you know, it’s not, it’s not necessarily because I’m homophobic or anything like that, it’s just that, that was what sort of tripped off the tongue.

So why not try to use more inclusive language in terms of gender, culture, sexuality, anything at all, When we’re having casual conversations with people, it’s going to make it a lot easier to start that conversation. Uh, but it’s certainly not just that. Sometimes it’s that real feeling that I. I have to be stronger than other people, um, or perhaps they’ve got some really incorrect ideas about what help looks like.

You know, I think, I often think about, you know, one of my really early days. As a mental health first aid instructor, when, oh gosh, Marie, we used to carry around these huge [00:33:00] bricks of, uh, overhead transparencies, it just seems, it wasn’t even that long ago. It just seems so incredibly old fashioned now. I don’t miss them by the way.

Uh, that I would, you know, that I was talking to people who, you know, especially back in sort of 2003, 2004, 2005, where. We were certainly starting to push the agenda of mental health, but a lot of people still had a lot of discomfort. And one woman told me about a strange aunt that she’d had, and people referred to her as a strange aunt or pretended she didn’t exist.

She never got invited to anything. And she said, in retrospect, I realize now that she had bipolar disorder. And so there was this, it’s not okay to have that, you know, and, and also that finally, when, uh, She learned as a young adolescent that her strange aunt had gone to hospital And then never saw her again.

So [00:34:00] she also had this idea that if you have a mental illness, that’s it you’re no longer a part of the community and and That’s simply not the case these days, you know, I mean there are definitely You know, we, we have a history where sometimes people were kept in hospitals for inappropriate lengths of time, but that’s certainly not the case now.

In fact, we don’t have enough beds for the people who really need a little bit of a break. So sometimes it’s about finding out, you know, what do you think help is going to look like? And what don’t you like about that? 

Marie Vakakis: Yeah, 

Claire Kelly: so myth busting what help looks like. Oh, they just give you antidepressants. Yeah.

Uh, well, actually, no, you know, overall, the best therapies are talking therapies, uh, and if medication is needed for a while, it’s certainly, you know, generally not something that people will have to take for life. So just being able to have that conversation is a really important one. 

Marie Vakakis: I think it’s interesting because I, on the other side of it, [00:35:00] It’s so normal for me to know what goes on behind the scenes and what sort of psychiatrists do and what psychologists do and working really well with GPs, but I can imagine how scary that is for someone who doesn’t work in that space, who just like I might be scared to go to the dentist, which is something I don’t know very much about.

I think, well, what’s all that, what’s all that equipment? What’s that going to do? Are they going to pull a tooth out? What are all those tools? Like I can, I can empathize with that anxiety and it’s, Having someone actually say, well what do you think that looks like, or how about I go with you, or I’ve been to someone and I found it helpful, or Yes.

And just as much as we hear the negatives, it’s really helpful. I think 

Claire Kelly: particularly when, for a lot of people, their ideas about what it looks like to have treatment for a mental illness comes from really terrible movies and television. Um, which, you know, may be less likely with the dentist, you know, It’s, it’s, we see terrible images on movies and television.

Marie Vakakis: So there’s some really good tips there around [00:36:00] being okay that you might not be the right person. Yep. And encouraging them to talk to somebody else if that is the case. And using the inclusive language, I think that’s a really good example because you can make those mistakes of, Oh, how about I call, um, mom and dad and that parent, that person might be living in kinship care with their grandparents or two dads or just a single mom or.

Claire Kelly: Absolutely. So even just 

Marie Vakakis: kind of being like, who’s. Who’s in your life that I can call, who’s around, like that general language can really, um, keep someone kind of conversing with you and feel comfortable for a bit longer. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. 

Marie Vakakis: Gosh, so important. Um, so you’ve got The teen mental health first aid course, which is peer to peer.

And then there’s also the tertiary, the mental health first aid for tertiary students. So how is that different to the standard in youth, but then different to the team? Cause it’s kind of its own little 

Claire Kelly: niche. It is. It’s a, it is a very niche little one. So basically the tertiary students one came from, um, a [00:37:00] project that we had going for a few years with, uh, nursing and medical students.

And we realized that. just every tertiary student really needed it because it was very focused on supporting a peer. But it, the teen program is for teenagers, you know, in high school, really the grades seven to nine and then grades 10 to 12. Um, And the, how much responsibility they can take and how much they’re able to do is different to, you know, young people who are in tertiary settings.

So it’s a similar model of looking out for each other. Yes. It’s not about what I’m going to do in my professional life afterwards, it’s about what can I, because tertiary settings are stressful. People working really hard, especially these days, most people have to, um, have a job along with a full time study.

And, and so. It, it more closely resembles the standard course because it is really about adults helping other adults, but it [00:38:00] includes some content from the youth course because say for example, uh, non suicidal self injury and eating disorders are actually very, very common in over 18s, say 18 to 25 year olds.

So it’s really important that that content is in that course. 

Marie Vakakis: Do people ever leave the course reporting that they’ve learned kind of tools or techniques that they apply? To their own mental health. 

Claire Kelly: Oh, you know, this is really interesting to me because you know, there’s so much there’s been so much research over the years on how do we encourage people to seek help for themselves and There’s a very well.

I don’t need it. So why would I apply this? It’s sort of feeling but when you say hey, we’re gonna give you tools to help somebody else you give someone the space to go, Oh, actually this could be me. So it happens a lot. And the interesting thing is though it’s not an aim of the program in any way, we have [00:39:00] research that has shown that it improves the mental health of the people who have attended the course as well.

So, which I think is great. I kind of want to know why I want to know how many people just go, Oh, well, you know, I am a bit stressed. I am a bit low. Um, I need to make some changes in my life versus people who go, Oh God, I definitely really need to see a doctor about what’s going on. You know, I think that everyone who realizes that things like, um, spending more time outdoors in the morning, getting more exercise, massage therapy, relaxation therapy, all of those are things that you can do without any kind of professional support.

And I want to know how many people. who have mild symptoms or just a sense of things not being as good as they used to be, actually incorporating those things into their lives and, and improving in that way. But yeah, yeah, it 

Marie Vakakis: does. Because I mean, that’s one of the, I guess, Maybe not a harsh criticism, but [00:40:00] of the mental health first aid courses, it doesn’t really talk about prevention and how do we prevent that?

Cause it’s very specific around first aid. Yeah. Um, but it does come out through the conversation around when people looking at how do I cope with, Once I’ve helped someone, I need to look after myself, because that’s quite stressful. Oh yes. And those conversations naturally start happening even though it’s not built into the curriculum as much.

Um, so touching on that a little bit, what can you recommend or what are some of the tips that you can, you can share with people to take care of their own mental health, whether they’re, they’re students, graduates, uh, working out in the field? I don’t think you ever really just. Nail self care. It’s just kind of no matter how experienced you are.

It’s still something you need to practice. 

Claire Kelly: Oh gosh I’m so glad to hear you use the word practice because that’s absolutely the case. It’s not something that you do occasionally It’s got to be something that you incorporate into your life And I think self care means different things to different people But sometimes it means nipping a problem in the bud early so that it doesn’t become a source of anxiety Sometimes it [00:41:00] means Actually just saying forget all my responsibilities tonight.

I am just chilling. You know, there’s a there’s a thousand different ways but I think in terms of taking care of your own mental health is Some really super simple basic things and one of them is getting exercise, you know It is so incredibly important. We know that people who get regular exercise and I’m not talking about competitive or Strenuous, you know moderate activity at least You know, half an hour, five times a week, just going for a walk, gosh, take the kids, take the dog, whatever, um, has a profoundly positive impact on people’s mental health.

Um, I, I think it’s really important that we remind ourselves and, you know, our kids and our friends, it’s better to talk about things that people who love you genuinely want to offer you that support. It’s not, you don’t have to be an island. 

Marie Vakakis: [00:42:00] One thing I tell people when they talk about. I want to talk to someone, but they keep trying to solve my problem for me is how to scaffold that.

So it might be that if you know that that person’s likely wanting to kind of problem solve and you just want to vent is actually being able to say, I’ve had a really stressful day and I just want to vent. Can you just listen to me for five minutes? Have a rant, like actually prepare the person and let them know how to help you.

Cause it often, it comes from a desire. Like you said, they want to help. So they might be like, Oh, you’re stressed about work. Well, that’s fine. You can quit. I can lend you the money. It’ll be fine. It’s like, no, no, just let me just have a vent and it’ll be fine. And letting that person know, headspace for it.

This is how I like to be supported, and this just helps me. I don’t need you to solve the problem, just sitting with me in it 

Claire Kelly: is helpful. And think about as well, the different people in your life. Sometimes you want that problem solver, and you go to them and you go, there’s crap going on, help me out. And sometimes you need the person who just says, let’s, Get a cup of tea and you can just rant all [00:43:00] you need to.

And you know, they’re not going to solve it. They’re just going to be your cheerleader and go, yeah, that’s people suck or whatever. 

Marie Vakakis: So some good self care tips. And I, and I like to remind people about the benefit, especially in our line of work around talking about things and using professional support.

So group supervision or supervision, because there’s an added layer of, I guess, challenge working with. such vulnerable people all the time that having a really good supervisor who can help you with professional growth as well as manage burnout, look at how you’re coping and really nut out some of those things is really important.

You know, it’s 

Claire Kelly: interesting you say that because I’m thinking about some of the people I know who are older who are closer to the end of their career than the beginning. One of the things that I always find about people who have been really successful and continue to contribute and remained in their career for a really long time is they’re the ones who always talk about the fact that You know, that they had great supervisors, that they [00:44:00] did talk to people, that they took time off when they needed to.

And it means, you know, being able to contribute in such an important way over an incredibly long period of time instead of exactly burning out, instead of feeling like, Oh, I’m the only person who’s not coping with my clinical load. You know, sometimes as well, I think, you know, it’s really important that when we are face to face with a client or a patient that we are supportive that we are there, that we are non judgmental.

But that doesn’t mean that it’s not okay to then go home and say, Oh my gosh, this person is just exhausting to be around. You know, that’s okay. And it doesn’t mean that we’re going to forget that it’s really exhausting to be that person and that they’re really struggling, but it, it’s okay to talk about, you know, I think it’s so important.

You know, we lose so many. incredibly compassionate and empathetic and [00:45:00] kind and skilled people in these fields when they try to keep everything going on their own. And then burn out and look for a different career. Yeah, absolutely. 

Marie Vakakis: Do you think mental health problems are getting worse? 

Claire Kelly: Do you know, I really do.

I mean, our evidence of that is limited. We certainly, there was a national survey of mental health and well being in 1997 and then another one in 2007, which hasn’t yet been reported. Um, which hasn’t yet been repeated, rather, sorry. Uh, and although the two, the two surveys were a little bit different in terms of, um, the content of them and because there’d been a significant update of, uh, some of the materials it was based on, it does seem that in particular anxiety is getting more and more common.

But I think, you know, we live [00:46:00] in an increasingly complex world where, you know, gosh, it’s only a couple of generations ago that people. felt more supported that they, the nuclear family, you know, where there was nobody else involved was really unusual. Uh, social media has had a huge impact, you know, and I’m not saying that that is all negative, but some of it is, you know, it gives people the opportunity to connect in ways that they might not otherwise be able to, but it also, Opens the way for us to, you know, I think people talk about bullying on social media to me Yeah That sucks But people have been, people can be bullied anywhere.

The big problem with social media is that we look at carefully curated feeds of people living this perfect, beautiful aesthetically pleasing life and we don’t realize that that’s That is their job. It’s not just what they roll out of bed looking like in the morning, for example. I 

Marie Vakakis: remember watching a [00:47:00] YouTube clip of a girl showing how she does her Instagram posts, and she literally spent a whole weekend with a professional photographer, and curated each image.

So she had a vision board of what she was going to wear, and sat down and had posed. In a cafe wearing exactly what she’d chosen for that coffee, it wasn’t that she just happened to take a photo while out for coffee. Yeah. She actually had a professional, like the whole day was curated. Yes. And then she posted them once a week over the next couple of months.

It’s like. So this is what my life looks 

Claire Kelly: like all the time. 

Marie Vakakis: But it’s not, she actually 

Claire Kelly: created it. Yes. Yeah. It all is. It, it, it all is. And, and that’s very new. 

Marie Vakakis: That is very new. Would you add into that kind of our general health, so diet and exercise and the impacts that that has, there’s a lot of, Upcoming research into what we eat and the impact on our mood.

Mm. And you mentioned exercise is a protective factor there, or as a way to kind of self-care. So I’m guessing the opposite. The sedentary lifestyle could also be [00:48:00] problematic in that sense. 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and when you, when we talk about diet as well, you know, I mean there’s a couple. We look over the last 30, 40 years.

One of the big problems is that the foods that are cheapest and most accessible, uh, those that are generally less good for us. So you can have a really super cheap. meal at McDonald’s and you know, that’s going to keep your belly full that night and if you’re poor if you don’t have You know, you don’t have the resources to cook yourself something healthy Then that is really really simple and you might be working two jobs And so there’s a whole lot of reasons not to eat very well There’s a there’s a good amount of evidence now for the Mediterranean diet.

So lots of grains healthy fats, lots of protein Lots and lots and lots of veggies, which are just so good and, uh, lean proteins. Because we 

Marie Vakakis: have a mood clinic [00:49:00] here in Melbourne that I think is doing a lot of research into that and they’re actually prescribing as part of their randomised control trials, the Mediterranean diet to see if that actually can alleviate 

Claire Kelly: symptoms as well.

Yeah. It’s a really interesting space to watch. It is. It is. I think, you know, an old colleague of mine, Felice Jacker, has been huge on, yeah, absolutely. Very worthwhile having a look at Felice. And I love hearing her speak, so if anyone’s interested, have a 

Marie Vakakis: YouTube kind of search of her. She’s fantastic. She really, really is.

Um, and I guess kind of as a parting, as a parting kind of comment is, you know, on a more personal note, how have you managed balancing the work you do that you find so valuable, but then also the emotional toll of it being, you know, being so immersed in the data, in the statistics and hearing kind of, perhaps the not so great stories of mental distress in others.

So how does that impact you and how do you take care of yourself being in that kind of role? 

Claire Kelly: Yeah, good. Look, gosh, there’s [00:50:00] a lot in that, isn’t there? Um, I think probably. Part of it is actually practicing what I preach, and really saying it is okay to reach out to ask for help. I have some people in my life who I know are unwaveringly supportive, and if I’m struggling I go straight to them.

Um, I think I do try really hard to, to focus on, and it sounds, probably sounds a little bit mean, but on the statistics instead of the individuals at times, because I can say, well, I can support this group and I can, you know, work, do things that are going to decrease distress in this group. And that doesn’t mean that I have to help this individual person.

You know, it’s, it’s very much about, you know, I, I, because otherwise, otherwise. Sometimes it’s going to feel like failure and that’s just and it’s not accurate But that doesn’t change the [00:51:00] way that it feels so looking at the areas that you can make an impact on a larger scale Exactly and as well as that, um, I get at least 45 minutes of exercise every day I and I tell you what, you know, I So many people like to kick back with an autobiography or something like that when they’re resting.

I read trash. I watch trash, pure escapist garbage. I love it. It is so important to my mental health, you know, that I just say, okay, I’m no longer at work. I’ll get home. I’ll change out of my clothes. And I read or watch absolute rubbish. Awesome. 

Marie Vakakis: Well, it’s knowing 

Claire Kelly: yourself and knowing 

Marie Vakakis: where 

Claire Kelly: you bounce back and what works.

And what makes you bounce back. You know, whatever that is, you need to know what makes you bounce back. 

Marie Vakakis: Awesome. Any parting comments for our listeners? 

Claire Kelly: Oh, look, come to a course. Uh, and [00:52:00] I hope that some of you guys become instructors. You know, I’ve, over time and I think there is very little in the world in life that is more satisfying or more important than being available to support somebody else.

And I, I very much applaud you on your career direction so far and it’s really nice to talk to you. 

Marie Vakakis: Awesome. Thanks so much, Claire. And thank you to all the listeners. I’ll pop up in the show notes, the links to the MHFA website. Bye. Bye. You And some of the resources we spoke about today and hope you found this podcast helpful.

I’m sure it’ll generate a lot of positive discussion. All right. I hope you enjoyed that episode and you’ve been refreshed with some extra tips and ways that you can engage with young people or anybody who’s mental health that you’re perhaps worried about and some ways to maybe phrase those conversations.

I’m running a upcoming youth mental health first aid course in Melbourne in December. And there’s an early [00:53:00] bird discount. Um, if you purchase your tickets before the 31st of October. So if you’re interested, check out the show notes or you can head over to my private practice, uh, webpage, which is www.

therapyhub. com. au. And I wanted to start getting in the habit of sharing some of the listener mail. I really love hearing from people. Um, I have a whole list of people’s ideas and suggestions for podcast episodes, so please keep them coming. And I wanted to share this comment. Uh, it was a rating and a review left by Rose a 1994, who said as an emerging social worker, I find this podcast so insightful and inspiring a range of topics covered, which are honest and answer a lot of questions I have about various sectors.

Thank you. So thank you, Rose a for leaving that wonderful review. I hope to hear from you soon.