[00:00:00] Jamie Maserow: A huge change that I saw at the time was in the way they’re socialising. For example, students in year four or year five started making their own arrangements. And going for walks with friends or running around town a little bit because what else were they meant to do? And the same thing happened with the teenagers coming into high school.

[00:00:29] Jamie Maserow: A lot of the socialising as it had to be, was done through phones. Social media has been created by the smartest people in the world to be the most addictive theme. That’s how it’s made, and they’ve definitely done a good job at that. What I’m seeing the most of, probably across the board is the children having too much control and power, and parents being scared of their children and giving in and being [00:01:00] really scared to put in consequences or boundaries.

[00:01:04] Jamie Maserow: We don’t want military homes. We don’t want horrible homes filled with rules and, and really authoritative, but I truly believe that children feel safer when there are boundaries put in place and. I’m seeing a mismatch between that. 

[00:01:25] Marie Vakakis: Hello and welcome to this complex life. Today I have with me psychologist Jamie Marow, and we are talking about young people, and not just in general, but what’s happening for young people now.

[00:01:38] Marie Vakakis: Post lockdown, post covid for those in Melbourne, you’ll know that we had some really difficult lockdowns that went for months and months and months over a couple of years, and people ask us what’s the impact? What’s happening? So we’re gonna talk all about that today. So welcome to the conversation, Jamie.

[00:01:59] Jamie Maserow: Thank you. [00:02:00] Good morning. Thank you so much for having me here today. 

[00:02:04] Marie Vakakis: Are we failing young people? I’m just gonna come right out and ask it like. Are we getting it wrong? And by we all adults in their lives, not just therapists. 

[00:02:14] Jamie Maserow: I don’t think as people in their lives we’re failing them, like as therapists or adults or parents or teachers.

[00:02:21] Jamie Maserow: But I think I. More broadly society and the way we’re working and the way our life is working is failing young people. What do you think? 

[00:02:33] Marie Vakakis: I haven’t read the book, the Myth of Normal in its entirety, but that’s just the bit that comes to mind is the work of Gabo Marti, kind of really saying how we are living, how we are doing things.

[00:02:44] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. It’s failing all of us. 

[00:02:46] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:02:47] Marie Vakakis: So from that perspective. In a way Yes. 

[00:02:50] Jamie Maserow: And I guess that’s what I meant in a way. Like I, I don’t think people in particular, there’s any certain group of people that are [00:03:00] failing the young people in our world, but the overarching way society’s working is Yeah. Is failing all of us and including them, which is so sad 

[00:03:13] Marie Vakakis: if we, we try and think about it more post covid.

[00:03:17] Marie Vakakis: For me, life is like, there’s like before and after, and there’s so much that has changed in around our digital accessibility, education, expectations, workplaces. When we look at those particular changes, whether it’s the impact of the remote education, remote everything, and the new embracing of technology, how does their world look different?

[00:03:42] Marie Vakakis: Like what are you seeing? 

[00:03:45] Jamie Maserow: I guess from a clinical perspective, I’m seeing, and I guess even now we’re a little bit more removed from the lockdowns, like they finished in 2021 and we’re in [00:04:00] 2025. But over, over the years, I’ve seen different parts of the young people’s lives quite majorly affected, but it’s been dependent on their age groups.

[00:04:11] Jamie Maserow: So I think the main. Areas for the younger ones. I had a lot of referrals coming through for cognitive assessments. The one year following covid, I can’t remember exactly which year it was, and I had a few assessments from that same age group. Let’s say they were year three. But when we did the background history for these little kids, their.

[00:04:36] Jamie Maserow: Prep and year one were in lockdowns and that’s the fundamental building blocks of their learning, where they learn the A, B, C, they learn to read and they learn maths. And I think that definitely has impacted them. 

[00:04:52] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, we, we noticed that as well. I work mostly with high school and above a lot more assessment requests [00:05:00] for autism.

[00:05:01] Marie Vakakis: A DHD in particular, we don’t offer. Cognitive assessments at the moment. Some because perhaps they miss those milestones or those opportunities, but some also maybe had a parent be able to observe how they study, their literacy, their numeracy, the quality of their work. 

[00:05:23] Jamie Maserow: Absolutely, and especially with a DHD inattentive subtype, which isn’t hyperactivity when they’re hyper pen running around the house, but it’s the difficulties that comes intraining and attending to what they’re learning when they were expected to sit down and.

[00:05:41] Jamie Maserow: Learn remotely. Big problems came up and were noticed, like you said, by the parents who hadn’t seen things, or even teachers ’cause inattention being an internal process can often get missed. And it came up a lot in that time, didn’t it? 

[00:05:59] Marie Vakakis: [00:06:00] Yeah. And it was hard to distinguish that from. The experience of like the distress that came with the lockdown.

[00:06:07] Marie Vakakis: So for some people it might’ve felt like a trauma and for a lot of people it was just heightened levels of distress. I mean, you know, we can take ourselves back to the everything but scary going to the supermarket, fighting over toilet paper rules, around masks, what you could do, what you couldn’t do. So there was a heightened level of anxiety and distress, and that can sometimes present as symptoms of.

[00:06:32] Marie Vakakis: Neurodivergence or mental ill health. And so it was actually really hard to separate. The context was so new it’s, it’s nothing like we’ve ever had before. Yeah. To use these psychometric testing on a population that was experiencing a collective trauma. Absolutely. In this way. 

[00:06:51] Jamie Maserow: Absolutely. And even in offering support, like counseling, not even the assessment, moving it to Zoom [00:07:00] like now, it feels so normal, right?

[00:07:02] Jamie Maserow: Doing this, you know, this over our chat through the computers like so fine and normal, but do you remember going back to starting. Like the first kind of Zoom counseling sessions that we were required to 

[00:07:17] Marie Vakakis: do. Oh, I do. And I remember trying to create it as natural as possible. So I had like a stand that I tried to put my iPad on so that I could still sit in a chair so I could still talk.

[00:07:29] Marie Vakakis: But then I was like, where do I look? Am I looking at them? Am I looking at me? If I just look at the camera, do I have two screens? Oh my God, the dog needs to go and wee, what do I do? 

[00:07:39] Jamie Maserow: It makes me feel so much better that you had all those things because So did I specifically where to look when you’re doing a Zoom.

[00:07:47] Jamie Maserow: What argument? It was so new to everyone. Right? And like what you said with it being new to adults and scary on a whole societal level. Imagine what it was [00:08:00] like for these kids or teenagers. 

[00:08:02] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. I found my teens adapted a little better to digital. Therapy. 

[00:08:08] Jamie Maserow: Yeah, 

[00:08:08] Marie Vakakis: working with kids was really, really hard.

[00:08:12] Marie Vakakis: ’cause often a lot of the things we use is play and games. Exactly. And all we could do was art. So I did send out packs of like coloring paper and my, like, we, we tried to replicate some of that, but it really required the parents to set everything up, tilt the camera down, like how do we do art and instructions and play games and have fun.

[00:08:33] Marie Vakakis: And learn, like it was actually really challenging. So even those who reached out for support, there was a limit to how much we, maybe how effective that felt at ims. 

[00:08:44] Jamie Maserow: Absolutely, it was. It’s with young kids. Even now, I sometimes get requests to do Zoom, zoom appointments. I don’t like doing it with young kids.

[00:08:54] Jamie Maserow: I don’t think it’s, it’s not right for me as a psych in the way I like to. [00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, 

[00:09:00] Jamie Maserow: same. I think teenagers can manage it a bit like you said, better or adolescents. Totally. You know, when we go up there or you know, some kind in their twenties can, but young, I don’t think it’s rightful. 

[00:09:14] Marie Vakakis: Mm. If we come back to kind of, we was talking about if we’re failing young people Mm.

[00:09:21] Marie Vakakis: And their world. It has changed. I mean, every generation has its changes, but something’s felt like they were turbocharge, like some of the, the changes that came through the lockdowns, it felt like there was like an acceleration of certain things. What are the trends that you are noticing around the different world that they’re navigating right now?

[00:09:41] Jamie Maserow: Well, the one thing. Is linked to, there’s two element, two parts of it. I, a huge change that I saw at the time was in the way they’re socializing and you can see it in again, depending on the different age groups, like I [00:10:00] think. For example, students in year four or year five, which I think is still quite young, started making their own arrangements and going for walks with friends or running around town a little bit because what else were they meant to do?

[00:10:16] Jamie Maserow: And I’m like, that’s really young, you know? So they got their independence. What I observed a little bit earlier. And the same thing happened. Well, it’s a little bit different, but with the, with the teenagers coming into high school, a lot of the socialiing as it had to be, was done through phones. Brings us to the big social media.

[00:10:40] Jamie Maserow: Kind of, but if we just talk about socializing and through phones, like what I would hear is if, if students went to bed at a decent hour that, you know, some WhatsApp groups would be writing messages until, you know, three or four in the morning. And they’re young, even though they don’t think they, young women, they’re [00:11:00] teenagers.

[00:11:01] Jamie Maserow: And, and that has, has huge impacts too. 

[00:11:05] Marie Vakakis: I had some. Less so of the ones reaching independence early. I had a lot who, it almost paused things for them, especially if they went to schools out of the area and their peers lived too far away and perhaps, you know, maybe if they went to an independent or private school, they didn’t have people walking distance.

[00:11:25] Marie Vakakis: And so a lot of my, my clients as well, neurodivergent. So socializing was hard if it wasn’t around a shared hobby or interest and. They almost had this gap of interaction. 

[00:11:38] Jamie Maserow: Yeah, and it’s just, it’s hard to generalize, but say one thing means one thing, because you’ve just reminded me. Some of the kids that I work with, let’s say on the autism spectrum disorder, they thrived and they loved every bit of covid and lockdown and remote learning.

[00:11:56] Jamie Maserow: I got some emails from mom saying, they’re doing [00:12:00] so well. We’re gonna stop therapy now. Which is so nice that they could do well because they could live in the way that was easier for them, I guess. So there, there were both parts to it as well. 

[00:12:14] Audio: Yeah. 

[00:12:15] Marie Vakakis: If we think in general terms, I mean, how has it impacted their health, mental health, physical health?

[00:12:23] Marie Vakakis: Like what are you sort of noticing in the folk you work with? 

[00:12:27] Jamie Maserow: I think mental health. Is declining overall in, in the young people. And it started, I don’t know exactly when it started there. There is all this research. If we, I guess we’re talking a little bit about Covid. There were articles and it was in the news that child psychs were so busy, right.

[00:12:48] Jamie Maserow: And therapists and mental health workers. And then. It was coming up in the media, but I was seeing it in the practice where I worked in real life. From then, [00:13:00] you know, the referrals and the wait list got so busy and we were sort of waiting for it to die down, and I don’t know if it has, which is sad to me.

[00:13:10] Marie Vakakis: I find it hard to quantify that because in a way I see more education around the terminology and. How to talk about mental health and value mental health and breaking the stigma and mental health support. So there is this increased literacy. 

[00:13:26] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:13:26] Marie Vakakis: Sometimes in a negative way where, uh, terminology might be misunderstood and used as a way to avoid certain things.

[00:13:34] Marie Vakakis: Like feeling anxious doesn’t mean an anxiety disorder. Yes. So there’s some of that stuff happening and at the same time. If there was an increased distress, but for the whole system and being a family therapist as well, I think about sometimes young people are put into a, a position or a role of if only they could get fixed, the whole, everyone else would be fine and [00:14:00] realise that they’re, they’ve got, they don’t have.

[00:14:01] Marie Vakakis: That control, they don’t have that power. They’re influenced by what’s happening around them. And that could be parent stress, financial pressure, yeah. Parent physical health, parent separation. Like there’s stuff happening that could be manifesting in distress, anxiety, depression, and Absolutely. Sometimes young people are kind of, oh, if you can just fix them.

[00:14:24] Marie Vakakis: It’s like, we can’t always do that. It’s a whole. System, a family, a broader system happening outside of that. And lockdown did put people one on top of the other. 

[00:14:37] Jamie Maserow: Wasn’t easy, was it? And I think, yeah, with just fixing then. I don’t love that sort of attitude in a way, but I understand it as well when it is so difficult.

[00:14:50] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, it is. It’s really tricky and I think families sometimes dunno what to do and things feel quieter now, [00:15:00] but I think that’s not because of the need. I think it’s the financial challenges that people are facing in accessing support, 

[00:15:07] Jamie Maserow: which is so sad too. And the way you even, like I know for Psychology in Covid, they changed it to 20 mental health care plan sessions per year.

[00:15:18] Jamie Maserow: You had an extra 10 covid sessions and that didn’t last. I think it was there for two years and then it got retracted back to 10. And that makes it difficult too. Mm, absolutely. The one thing that I was just thinking about though. In terms of our young people and the impacts from the lockdowns and socializing, they got really good.

[00:15:40] Jamie Maserow: Then I think at communicating online or really bad, I dunno which way it is, because that was the way they could communicate with each other. I’ve seen like a lot of like really horrible bullying kind of. [00:16:00] Situations come up, but more through the phone than in real life. So I try teach, you know, if you’re gonna send a message on your phone, be prepared for it to be up on a billboard for the world to see.

[00:16:14] Jamie Maserow: And if you’re comfortable with that, then send it. Have you seen impacts around the socializing in that way at all? That’s felt like a 

[00:16:23] Marie Vakakis: gradual increase from when I was at school. I think it’s just the accessibility, like it started off in, you know, what did we have now? The different chat functions we had and slowly, slowly, yeah, it really did.

[00:16:36] Marie Vakakis: And. But that’s adults are doing that too. Yeah. Every time I see a, a news article in on very social media platforms, there’s always someone commenting something really nasty or really negative, or very biased, or very one-sided. You know, we see politicians speak atrociously about each other. They don’t have very great role models [00:17:00] for that.

[00:17:01] Marie Vakakis: And so we can’t blame the device. Yes, the device can make it easier to feel like you’ve got anonymity. Like you might not walk up to someone face to face and say the nasty things you say. Mm-hmm. But there seems to be less awareness of the real person on the other side of that. But I don’t think that’s limited to young people.

[00:17:23] Jamie Maserow: No, I don’t think it’s, well, no, it’s definitely not limited to young people, but I also don’t know if young people can comprehend as like adults you would hope, would more understand the impact of what they’re gonna say may have, maybe they don’t choose not to think about it, but the, the kids or the teenagers even, I don’t know that they all have that maturity yet.

[00:17:53] Marie Vakakis: Do you think I did? No. The maturity is one, but I don’t know if any of us know how to cope with that. Like especially, and [00:18:00] I think of some of the, the female entrepreneurs that I might follow, or people that post things that are maybe pushing a particular perspective that other people don’t agree with those comments.

[00:18:15] Marie Vakakis: It might not be one person consistently bullying them, but they do get. Comment after comment after comment of insult of threats of things that are actually really intimidating. And when you’re on the receiving end of that, I don’t think maturity really helps change. Is that actually a real threat? Is that person going to do something?

[00:18:39] Marie Vakakis: How do we know that? You know, the just go kill yourself. And they just kind of put us JK YS like how do we know that that’s just like a flippant thing? Or is that a really aggressive, like, I don’t know, as a community, if we have enough awareness of that and an avenue to follow that [00:19:00] up with a formal investigation process.

[00:19:03] Marie Vakakis: ’cause if someone came up to you and said some of those things that you see even on more professional platforms like LinkedIn. Like if, if you went up to someone and said that to them in person, it would be almost assault. 

[00:19:16] Jamie Maserow: It’s so horrible. Hey, and that’s where like my idea, oh, not my idea. What, what I said at the start in a way.

[00:19:24] Jamie Maserow: Like, are we all failing? Probably, but I don’t know. 

[00:19:31] Marie Vakakis: I’m not sure either. Yeah, I think it’s really interesting and I think about the use of technology and social media just feels like a really big one. And I wonder if that’s going to be something we look back on and think, just like we look back and think, how did we ever not wear seat belts?

[00:19:47] Marie Vakakis: I wonder if we’ll look back on something we’re doing now about social media and think how did we let this happen? 

[00:19:53] Jamie Maserow: And that was one of the. Sort of the ideas. What do you think, uh, about the use of social [00:20:00] media and the impacts it’s had on the young people? 

[00:20:03] Marie Vakakis: It’s really hard. I’m a big believer in sort of.

[00:20:08] Marie Vakakis: Having autonomy and I, I like the idea of some young people having access to groups and support services and advocacy that can come through social media. And then there are young people that I’ve worked with or I’ve, I’ve known who could be two blocks away from one of their friends, and they’re chatting.

[00:20:29] Marie Vakakis: Digitally instead of hanging out at their house. And so I don’t think we can blame social media for every wrongdoing. Mm. There are other cultural shifts that have happened that mean we’re not seeing, like I think I remember seeing an article from a emergency doctor or pediatrician, it was someone in the medical field sort of saying, where are all the broken bones?

[00:20:50] Marie Vakakis: Like kids aren’t playing and taking risks and. That’s part of building resilience, and that could be a parenting strategy, [00:21:00] could be communities don’t feel safe. It could be that it’s easier to play games or communicate on social media in a way that has been created to keep you on there longer. That’s it.

[00:21:12] Marie Vakakis: To give you that dopamine rush. Exactly. And so there’s a lot of, it’s not simple. Anyone who tries to say It is a simple fix. It’s not possible. 

[00:21:24] Jamie Maserow: No, it’s definitely not possible and it’s so ingrained in, in the way we live, but I explain to more parents sometimes that, and I think about it for myself, right?

[00:21:38] Jamie Maserow: Social media has been created by the smartest people in the world to be the most addictive thing. That’s how it’s made, and they’ve definitely done a good job at that. 

[00:21:51] Marie Vakakis: One of the, as we’re talking about kind of getting out and about, one of the things I see parents often say is [00:22:00] like, why don’t you just do X, Y, Z?

[00:22:02] Marie Vakakis: Or you don’t know what boredom is. Go figure it out. Like, you know, they’re trying to just say these things and I think teenagers get misunderstood. Like I know they are pushing parents away. They’re wanting more autonomy and independence. But they don’t wanna be just completely left to their own devices.

[00:22:17] Marie Vakakis: No. So there is such a difference saying, why don’t you just go for a run? I mean, I don’t even wanna do that. It’s very different saying, let’s go do this together. Let’s go have a hit of tennis. Let’s go for a bike ride. Like making it fun and engaging and doing with them. It’s such a big difference and that that seems to be missing for a lot of folk.

[00:22:40] Jamie Maserow: It’s the connection, like the, just the family unit kind of connection. I even did a, a post I was interested in, or a poll asking people, do you have dinner together as a family? And it’s something I feel very lucky that I grew up [00:23:00] doing every, not every night, you know, especially as you become a bit older and teenagers, you get busier.

[00:23:04] Jamie Maserow: But it was the norm in my household. I don’t know if it’s the norm anymore. But that connection time and the time you can spend together, I think is invaluable. 

[00:23:17] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I often, I don’t know the quote, I didn’t make up the quote. It’s definitely come from somewhere else, but I often tell parents it’s connection, overcorrection.

[00:23:25] Marie Vakakis: It doesn’t mean that there can’t be consequences. It doesn’t mean that there are no boundaries. But in those moments, it’s connection first. 

[00:23:33] Jamie Maserow: I so agree with that. When you know, even when teenagers are pushing parents away, which they do, and I’m not saying it’s easy to parent teenagers, but what I try suggest is come back to them stronger with love.

[00:23:51] Jamie Maserow: They go into their room and shut their door. Go in and just sit with them and just be with them. But with the, I don’t know [00:24:00] if it’s shame or embarrassment or being a bit too cool, I couldn’t imagine a teenager coming out and saying, oh, mom or dad, will you come sit with me? They won’t, but it’s mom or dad’s maybe job or.

[00:24:12] Jamie Maserow: Responsibility to go. And I think just that connection and, and love and time can be so helpful for the young people 

[00:24:22] Marie Vakakis: because I can picture it. I mean, let’s play out a scenario. If I was the teen or the teen sort of saying, mom, I want pink hair. I wanna dye my hair pink. The response might be, don’t be ridiculous.

[00:24:34] Marie Vakakis: You can’t do that. What’s your school gonna say? Or they could say, you want pink hair? Yeah, all my friends are getting pink hair. Are you gonna follow what all your friends are doing? If they jumped off a bridge, would you jump to right? I’ve been on the receiving end of these and I’ve witnessed them. Or they could say, so all your friends are doing it, you know, active listening.

[00:24:56] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And I really wanna fit in. Oh, sounds like [00:25:00] you’re having trouble fitting in and then a whole other conversation emerges. That’s got nothing to do with pink hair. Yeah, but that gets missed all the time. ’cause it’s the correction first. It’s That’s against the rules. Absolutely. No way. Or very permissive parents.

[00:25:16] Marie Vakakis: Absolutely. Let’s go get pink hair straight away. How cool. I’ll do it too. We, and I’m seeing both of those extremes in huge 

[00:25:25] Jamie Maserow: amounts. And finding the balance, I think is, is the best way. But it, it’s hard. 

[00:25:33] Marie Vakakis: It is. In your observations and your experience, what do parents sometimes get wrong when they’re trying to support their young people?

[00:25:42] Jamie Maserow: What I’m seeing the most of, probably across the board is the children having too much control and power. In the homes and parents being scared of their children and giving in and being really scared to put in consequences or [00:26:00] boundaries. You know, my first. Sort of saying is we don’t want military homes, we don’t want horrible homes filled with rules and, and really authoritative, but I truly believe that children feel safer when there are boundaries put in place and.

[00:26:23] Jamie Maserow: I’m seeing a mismatch between that. 

[00:26:26] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, I’d say that too. And it’s around that consistency and care, and that doesn’t have to be permissive. Exactly. When I run parenting workshops, we talk about that a lot of having empathy doesn’t mean you agree. You know, if they’ve come home and said, you know, I’ve had a, you know, big grumpy day.

[00:26:46] Marie Vakakis: It’s like, what happened? I got a detention. Often the instinct is, what did you do wrong? But you know, having empathy can be, oh, that’s, you must be disappointed. You had, I dunno, [00:27:00] football training and you missed it. Yeah. Okay. What happened? Oh, the teacher said, and the next person to speak out of line gets a detention and I was just laughing with my friend and parents often go to.

[00:27:13] Marie Vakakis: Well the teacher was right. You shouldn’t have been talking. Or how dare that teacher pick on you unfairly? And again, it’s okay to say that’s annoying. You were just having fun. Empathising doesn’t mean you agree that what they did was appropriate or okay, or that there shouldn’t be a consequence. He’s actually just saying, I get that you are disappointed.

[00:27:37] Marie Vakakis: Then it might be you follow that up with, well, you know the rules, the teacher gave you detention you’ve missed out on whatever. That felt like a fair enough punishment. I don’t think we need to do anything else. You’ve already been, you know, we’ve respecting that. So, and people really struggle with this ’cause they think if I say, you must be disappointed that I’m saying that behavior was [00:28:00] okay.

[00:28:00] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. And it’s not, it’s not the case. 

[00:28:03] Jamie Maserow: No. It, it’s validating how they feel and, and then explaining, you know, that this might happen if you laugh, even if it’s annoying. Going too match to the other side is when parents. Are saying, oh, well that teacher’s ridiculous. You shouldn’t have got a detention.

[00:28:22] Jamie Maserow: That’s not fair. And then fight for their kid, their, you know, talk to the teacher, take it further. And it’s like, if we don’t teach children or young people, they don’t get resilience. Life is gonna teach them at the end of the day. So sometimes having a, a punishment or consequence is actually okay. Yeah.

[00:28:47] Marie Vakakis: And what I want parents to take away from that is that you’ll be there for them even when shit hits the fan. Yes. Yes, exactly. That can be a consequence, but that doesn’t mean you [00:29:00] withdraw love. That doesn’t mean you withdraw care. 

[00:29:02] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:29:03] Marie Vakakis: And it doesn’t mean, you know, if they’re, if they’ve been grounded.

[00:29:06] Marie Vakakis: That doesn’t mean you still can’t have fun with them. It doesn’t mean you can’t have an UNO marathon or play Jenga or like if devices have been removed. It’s not rewarding bad behavior to connect with them. It’s actually building a foundation for them to come back to you in the future when shit hits the fan.

[00:29:24] Jamie Maserow: And that’s what you want, right? That’s what you want in the, in the units as parents and kids. There’s a certain element of safety. If I do the naughtiest thing in the world, I can still go tell my parents I might get in trouble, but they will still love me. 

[00:29:41] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And I think this, the fear is it’s going to permit them.

[00:29:46] Marie Vakakis: Rather than they will make mistake. They will, they will make mistakes, they will mess up. There might be a boundary or a consequence in place and I will still love you. Absolutely. [00:30:00] So if parents are listening and they’re like, okay, I can try and take this on board. But my kids still needs a bit of extra help.

[00:30:06] Marie Vakakis: They’re really struggling and I don’t know what to do. What’s the best thing a parent or you know, caring auntie uncle or as Maggie didn’t call ’em lighthouses, you know, a responsible adult in their life. Yeah. What can those people do if they’re living with working with caring for a young person who’s struggling but doesn’t want help?

[00:30:28] Jamie Maserow: I think we’ve covered it already in a way, the connection and the time. And just being with them. Maybe not, not necessarily talking about it. Sometimes they don’t wanna talk, you know, just showing that care and that love. You would know this to Marie. There’s no. When it’s behavioral and it’s young kids, it’s a different story.

[00:30:52] Jamie Maserow: But if it’s a teenager who really doesn’t wanna talk, forcing them to go to therapy or psychology isn’t [00:31:00] always the right approach, and sometimes it can actually be more detrimental. They can be more untrusting and less likely to engage in the future. But when they are struggling, I think being there with them that, that the connection and the time is the best.

[00:31:16] Jamie Maserow: What do you think 

[00:31:18] Marie Vakakis: I had, uh, one young person many years ago who. Did something at school, got punished for it, and then had to see me as punishment. And it was like you’ll see a therapist for X many sessions before the privileges get returned. And that was awful. And I think mom was desperate, was really hypervigilant, very nervous, trying to do everything right, but that came at the cost of their relationship.

[00:31:46] Marie Vakakis: Which meant he probably wasn’t gonna talk to her in the future. He didn’t feel trusted. He thought I was aligned with her because she made the referral. And that’s very different to saying, Hey, I’m [00:32:00] worried I’m not sure what to do. Could you just humor me and have a couple of sessions with someone Totally confidential.

[00:32:08] Marie Vakakis: Let’s just see how it goes, like forcing that. I mean, and I see it. I work a lot with couples and it sort of comes full circle. ’cause what I see. Done for children and, and teens, other skills that are lacking in the couples that I work with. And they were parented that way. And so it’s this back and forth between the overlap of those skills missing of actually being able to say, it’s not like a you will go to couples therapy.

[00:32:34] Marie Vakakis: Oh, break up with you. It’s very different saying I’m struggling. Yeah. I think we need to work on this. I’d like to go so I can have some help. Communicating in a way that’s more effective. 

[00:32:48] Jamie Maserow: It’s probably the exact same, like forcing a teenager or adolescent to therapy or your partner, 

[00:32:53] Marie Vakakis: you get more resistance, right?

[00:32:55] Marie Vakakis: They dig their heels in or they go in and think, well, I can prove you wrong [00:33:00] here. I. They’ll be more resistant rather than having a little bit open. Yeah. And it’s really unpleasant for us. Well, that’s it. That’s it. Because 

[00:33:10] Jamie Maserow: don’t don’t, please don’t do it. We don’t like this. No, we don’t wanna be punishment.

[00:33:14] Jamie Maserow: I’ve even over the years, sometimes when parents, you know, if a bad thing happens at home, they’re like, we’re discussing this with Jamie. And the first thing I try and make really clear, even in those sessions, you know. Or to the parents privately is like the kids I see. They’re never gonna be in trouble with me.

[00:33:36] Jamie Maserow: I can try go through different ways of managing situations better, making a better choice in the next time. 

[00:33:42] Audio: Mm. 

[00:33:42] Jamie Maserow: Or telling them sometimes if I do think it’s wrong, but they’re not in trouble with me and you don’t want, you really don’t want parents to frame it, oh, this happened. We are going to Jamie, it, it, it’s not good that, you know, it doesn’t help our work, does it?

[00:33:57] Marie Vakakis: No. And if anything, [00:34:00] it’s the parents that are really valuable to bring in there and say, what makes this hard to talk about at home? 

[00:34:06] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:34:06] Marie Vakakis: What, what communication skills or what, what’s missing for you to have these tough conversations and sometimes that connection that needed to have been there from day dot, it’s a skill that keeps getting scaffolded and, and built up over time.

[00:34:20] Marie Vakakis: So. If you’ve maybe been a busy parent or not as present, or it’s available, maybe this is gonna take a little bit of extra work and you’re not going to just get the results that you, you want straight away. So often no one’s getting in trouble, but usually the work is helping the parents find different ways to talk about those things so they can feel.

[00:34:43] Marie Vakakis: I want them to not need me. Yes. I don’t wanna be a referee. I want to teach exactly what makes it hard to put in place a boundary. What makes it hard to say I love you and I’m disappointed? Or what makes it hard to enforce the home rules? Or was there enough [00:35:00] buy-in? Like, we can talk about those things, but I’m, I’m not punishment.

[00:35:04] Jamie Maserow: No, no, no. And then even when, if someone does need help and they really don’t want it. There would be steps I would take with connection, with time, with doing things they like to try. And then I also think opposite to what I’ve said, if. It can reach a point where they really are in trouble and there really is professional help required, and it’s a parent’s responsibility to say, this isn’t your choice anymore.

[00:35:36] Jamie Maserow: We need to do this. But that’s probably more on the extreme end, not the every day. 

[00:35:42] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, and that can still, you can still give choice in that. You can still say. This is more than I feel comfortable to manage and just like I’m, you know, not dentist, I wouldn’t pull out your teeth or I’m not a doctor to do these things.

[00:35:56] Marie Vakakis: Or even if I was, maybe I wouldn’t do it for family. We [00:36:00] now need some additional support. I have found three people I think might be a good fit. Mm-hmm. Which one would you prefer? Or this is happening, let’s look together. Yeah, let’s look together. There still can be choice. In that, but as you were saying earlier about just being available and being present, I was thinking about how many people overestimate what connection means.

[00:36:24] Marie Vakakis: Like it doesn’t always have to be big, fun date nights or activities. 

[00:36:29] Jamie Maserow: No. 

[00:36:30] Marie Vakakis: A lot of people like. They look for kind of mentorship. They, they’re happy to learn a skill. It could be taking them with you to work and giving them some chance to do. It could be like, oh, I’m gonna, you know, we’re, we’re painting the house.

[00:36:44] Marie Vakakis: Why don’t you come and paint the wall with me? It could be in sitting quietly while you are fishing. It could be, I don’t know, teaching them, groom a dog. Like a lot of people want to feel important and connected. And they look up to adults and [00:37:00] so that doing something can then become bit of a, a cue for when they need support.

[00:37:07] Marie Vakakis: One of the dads I worked with, he, we talked about bids for connection and he was like, my daughter came up to me, it’s some ungodly hour, which she should have been in bed and wanted to play Monopoly. And he’s like, for goodness sakes, like the longest game ever past bedtime. But he remembered the bid for connection.

[00:37:26] Marie Vakakis: So I was like, I’m gonna let this. I’m just gonna say, yeah, let’s play for a little bit. And while setting up the game and, and kind of dealing with the money and all that stuff, then she started to talk about some friendship issues. 

[00:37:37] Audio: Mm. 

[00:37:37] Marie Vakakis: And so monopolies now become her way of being able to say, instead of saying, I want to talk, it’s, can we play Monopoly?

[00:37:46] Marie Vakakis: And so now that’s become a bit of currency for that relationship of the Let’s Play Monopoly is a bit of a flag of either I want connection or I need to talk. She’s 

[00:37:56] Jamie Maserow: so beautiful 

[00:37:58] Marie Vakakis: and so that showed the importance [00:38:00] of leaning into that as a yes. Like still went to bed a bit later, but the thing was had he said, no, it’s ridiculous.

[00:38:06] Marie Vakakis: It’s too late. She would’ve still gone to bed upset. Mm-hmm. Still been processing these friendship dramas. And not have had support to her. She still wouldn’t have gone to sleep ’cause she would’ve been dealing with all of this on her own. 

[00:38:19] Jamie Maserow: That’s so beautiful. It’s how lucky that he just said yes that time.

[00:38:23] Audio: Yeah. 

[00:38:24] Jamie Maserow: It’s a, that parents natural kind of instinctual intuition sometimes I, I often think even though we might do, you know, sometimes do parenting or work in this way. You know, parents are the experts of their own children. 

[00:38:42] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And it’s sometimes it’s confronting ’cause it, in order for them to learn something, you might need to step back.

[00:38:51] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So it’s finding this, this balance of reflection and, and wisdom and taking the bits that feel like they match for your family. [00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:39:01] Marie Vakakis: While at the same time we do have a heap of evidence that certain strategies don’t work, and so it, it’s looking at that from reputable sources, I suppose. 

[00:39:12] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:13] Jamie Maserow: Which is not social media necessarily. No. Do you 

[00:39:16] Marie Vakakis: have some go-to resources, books, podcasts that you recommend for families? If they’re listening, they’re like, oh, I could kind of brush up on some of these or kind of hear some other stories. 

[00:39:26] Jamie Maserow: I’m a little bit more old fashioned, but there’s one book I absolutely love.

[00:39:29] Jamie Maserow: It’s called Everyday Parent. That’s, and I think I should know the name exactly off the top of my head. Give me one second. It’s I think by Matthew Sanders. Have you heard of him? No. Matthew Sanders. It’s a very old book that, that I love and recommend a lot for parenting. Great. 

[00:39:52] Marie Vakakis: I have um, hold Onto Your Children by Gabel Mar.

[00:39:56] Marie Vakakis: Quite a good one. 

[00:39:57] Jamie Maserow: Ah, I’d like to read that. 

[00:39:59] Marie Vakakis: [00:40:00] And it’s Bill Garvey, he’s a pediatrician from Melbourne. He’s got the book, 10 Things I Wish You Knew About Your Child’s Mental Health and I think it’s a really accessible one and he hosts the podcast Pop Culture Parenting. So some good ones there that I think would be quite helpful.

[00:40:15] Jamie Maserow: That book’s recently come out, right? Yeah. 

[00:40:20] Marie Vakakis: I listened to the audio book and he reads it, and so it’s nice to just get a bit of insight into his vibe as well. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Hopefully this has given people a little bit of insight into what’s happening for the young ones we support, maybe tips that they can try to.

[00:40:38] Marie Vakakis: Do better, and maybe everyone’s gonna go out and buy Monopoly board and just leave it there and hope for the best, not monopoly 

[00:40:44] Jamie Maserow: every night. I mean, and that’s a really important word you said. I think we always hold on to hope that even if things haven’t been great for the last few years with our young people, we hope and strive towards it getting better for them and for everyone.

[00:40:58] Jamie Maserow: Right. 

[00:40:59] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, [00:41:00] absolutely. And I, I encourage parents to say, they’re like, well, how do I introduce this new? And I’d say to overt that to say, I listened to a podcast or I spoke to my therapist, like, you’re already normalising learning as being a good thing and normalising health seeking. And then say, it brought to my attention that.

[00:41:19] Marie Vakakis: I could try to do things different or that maybe I’ve contributed to us feeling a little prickly or things being a little bit distant between us and I wanna try something new. And it could go wrong. It could be awkward, it might be really uncomfortable, but I wanna try. Exactly. Because that’s the role modeling that they need, that we don’t to be able to try hard things themselves.

[00:41:42] Marie Vakakis: Yes, absolutely. Because they can’t be what they can’t see. And so that role modeling. It needs to be there for them not to be told, go seek help and do better. It’s them witnessing you. I’ve gone to read something, listen to something, and I’m gonna talk to you about trying to do better, [00:42:00] which is confronting.

[00:42:01] Marie Vakakis: Right? It’s a bit hard. 

[00:42:02] Jamie Maserow: Yeah. 

[00:42:02] Marie Vakakis: Being vulnerable and authentic. It’s awkward. 

[00:42:05] Jamie Maserow: It’s so hard. It’s so hard. But they get to learn 

[00:42:09] Marie Vakakis: that you are imperfect too. Yeah, exactly. Thanks so much, Jamie. When can people find you if they wanna get in touch or work with you or talk to you or learn 

[00:42:22] Jamie Maserow: about you? So I have a website, which is my name, jamie maro.com.

[00:42:31] Jamie Maserow: Do I need to spell it out? No link. On social media, it was a hard one for me to accept that I needed to start a page, but I’m the therapist in therapy with dots in between. I actually have a book coming out in two weeks about my journey and therapy and being not perfect and the vulnerability coming out.

[00:42:56] Jamie Maserow: So that’s how I can be found. 

[00:42:59] Marie Vakakis: Wonderful. [00:43:00] Thanks so much. Thank you for your time.

[00:43:06] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the Conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll share tools, tips, and insights. There’s a link in the show notes.

[00:43:23] Marie Vakakis: Got a question you want answered, ship me an email or a dm. I’d love to hear from you and if you enjoy the show, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review. It helps other people find the podcast.