[00:00:00] Marie Vakakis: I am a big believer that pills don’t teach skills, whether it’s for mental health or physical health. There’s a lot of things that we can change and influence in our day-to-day life, from exercise to what we eat, to who we interact with that. We can’t just fix with a pill. And so I would be talking to that person about where they want to go, where they want to be, what’s getting in the way, perhaps understanding their history and grief can be part of depression.

[00:00:36] Marie Vakakis: It can be that feeling of helplessness and loss of enjoyment in things, and that can come from grief. When we try to selectively numb certain emotions, we actually numb the more pleasant emotions too. Yeah. So it’s like with your sense of smell, you can’t just not smell dog poo, right? It’s either you smell all the smells, you smell dog poo.

[00:00:58] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. You smell. [00:01:00] Roses and cologne and scent candles, but you can’t just selectively not smell certain smells. If you step on dog poo, you’re going to smell dog poo, and emotions are a bit like that. If you’re trying to numb sadness, you’re actually going to numb joy. If you’re trying to numb grief. You won’t let yourself experience love.

[00:01:19] Marie Vakakis: When we try to selectively numb certain emotions, we actually numb the more pleasant emotions too. Yeah, so it’s like with your sense of smell, you can’t just not smell dog poopoo, right? It’s either you smell all the smells, you smell dog poop. Yeah. Smell roses and cologne and scented candles. But you can’t just selectively not smell certain smells.

[00:01:43] Marie Vakakis: If you step on dog poo, you’re going to smell dog poo. And emotions are a bit like that. If you’re trying to numb sadness, you’re actually going to numb joy. If you’re trying to numb grief, you won’t let yourself experience love. 

[00:01:57] Ron Souers: So welcome. We’re here with Marie [00:02:00] Vakakis. That’s right. Right. So she has been gracious enough to come on this podcast.

[00:02:08] Ron Souers: This is the second part of an amazing, you know, little swap that we had. And now we’re, we’re talking about ADHD from, uh, like the therapy perspective. So welcome. 

[00:02:20] Marie Vakakis: Thanks for having me. I love doing little podcast swaps ’cause it’s, you get to kind of cover things that you don’t normally talk about on your normal podcast.

[00:02:29] Marie Vakakis: So this has been a really fun process. 

[00:02:33] Ron Souers: Yeah, I’m glad you, you enjoyed it too. Yeah, and I’m always curious about like, ’cause I know it from the coaches side, but I don’t really know it from like the therapy side. Like I’ve kind of talked to my therapist and I have pretty good relationship with that. But you know, we really don’t go deep into like a lot of this, so this would be definitely an awesome little treat for me.

[00:02:54] Ron Souers: So before we get started, how did you get involved with your podcast? 

[00:02:58] Marie Vakakis: It started off, [00:03:00] I actually have two podcasts. I have this Complex life and one called Inside Social Work. So the Inside Social Work one started first I was working in universities with students on placement. And so one of the things we have to do as part of our qualification is two 500 hour, so three month unpaid placements, and we have different people from the university go out and.

[00:03:23] Marie Vakakis: See if the placement is supporting the learning objectives and provide supervision, and I just started interviewing some of the host organisations. There were some social workers doing really amazing things from working in legal settings to starting their own charities, working in substance use. I mean, the breadth of exposure to different fields of social work really.

[00:03:48] Marie Vakakis: Impressed me. And so I just started recording some of those conversations and eventually that podcast grew and it’s still going. It’s in about, I think it’s its seventh year now. Wow. And for a little while, I [00:04:00] paused it and created this complex life because while I loved interviewing other professionals, I didn’t offer services for other professionals.

[00:04:09] Marie Vakakis: So I was doing therapy, I was running, you know, group private practice. I had couples therapy, family therapy. And a few supervision sessions. So it’s sort of like, I guess, what’s the US call it? Like consultation hours or, mm-hmm. There’s another name for it. So I paused that for a little bit and started this complex life.

[00:04:29] Marie Vakakis: So I was interviewing similar people, but I was asking them about the work that they do for. A general audience rather than how they got to where they got to. So I was still interviewing mental health professionals, researchers, but instead of thinking about the audience being other mental health professionals, it was what would the general public, how would they like to hear that person talk?

[00:04:53] Marie Vakakis: So. It sort of started that way by having hopefully longer nuanced [00:05:00] conversations rather than really small clickbait things that didn’t provide enough context or allow for exploration of a topic. And yeah, so now I’ve got both of them. And they keep me very busy. It’s a labor of love, that’s for sure. 

[00:05:15] Ron Souers: No, I can imagine like, you’ve got this practice, you’ve got two podcasts, like that’s, that’s an amazing amount of, you know, and, and, and from where you’ve come from, like it’s an incredible journey.

[00:05:26] Ron Souers: Like it can’t be easy being in social work and starting out as, like you said, an intern. So what, what really drew you into like these fields? 

[00:05:37] Marie Vakakis: My first job was actually, I worked a lot in the disability sector, and then I moved into, my first job was in aged care in a organisation that supported people who’d been homeless or at risk of homelessness to access affordable housing and services, and I really loved that work.

[00:05:57] Marie Vakakis: There was something that I felt I could [00:06:00] do that intervened a little bit earlier rather than waiting for it to get to that point. So then I started working with. Within an adult, a general adult population. And again, I was like, this is great. There’s a lot of stuff we can do, but I still think I can go further upstream a little bit earlier.

[00:06:16] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And then I settled on working with adolescents and so that, I loved that. I went and did some extra study, worked in schools. And then I thought, okay, cool. This is my spot. This is where I fit. But then they came with parents and they would bring a parent into the room and I was like, I don’t know what to do.

[00:06:34] Marie Vakakis: Do I just, here’s a brochure, take this and read. Like I didn’t know. How to navigate having more than one person in the room and it be therapeutic rather than just informative. And then I went and studied family therapy, so I’m sort of like the dual qualification that you would have there of LCSW and LMFT.

[00:06:54] Marie Vakakis: It’s both of those qualifications here. So now I do a lot of family work, couples [00:07:00] work, and that’s about as early intervention as I feel like I can get. So it sort of, it all evolved. Bits and pieces, and then I sort of found the area that. I really enjoy working with. 

[00:07:11] Ron Souers: Yeah, that’s an incredible journey and, and I love how you like, found your, your sweet spot.

[00:07:17] Ron Souers: And, and even in, in that you, you still were able to grow and face some of the fears. Like it takes a lot of, you know, perseverance, you know, to really follow your heart and. Bravery just to like step out into something like that you may or may not feel like is going to be as good as what might be with a little bit more education.

[00:07:42] Ron Souers: Like, I definitely can relate to that because like that’s, that’s similar to what I’m trying to do is like, you know, push the envelope and, and do it, you know, and, and continue to grow and continue to get bigger and continue to. Help you know people in a better way. So many [00:08:00] people with A DHD feel they’ve been misunderstood or misdiagnosed for years.

[00:08:06] Ron Souers: What are some of the most common misconceptions you see in therapy? 

[00:08:09] Marie Vakakis: I do have a lot of people at the moment. I mean a lots have been exaggeration, but who are recently being diagnosed with A DHD and it’s questioning previous diagnosis of things like bipolar or borderline personality disorder. So that can feel really.

[00:08:28] Marie Vakakis: I think a lot of grief. Grief is the largest feeling that comes up. Grief for what could have been grief for what could have been different if I’d known earlier the mm-hmm. It’s sort of like you mentioned in your story around that harsh dialogue that you have in your head. Sometimes there’s a bit of a grief for how I’ve treated myself.

[00:08:48] Marie Vakakis: I thought I was stupid. I thought I wasn’t enough, and all along it was, you know, maybe like someone who. Was playing, it was being naughty in class because they couldn’t see the board. They, they physically [00:09:00] needed their eyes checked and knitted glasses and it’s, sometimes, it’s, it’s a lot of those feelings.

[00:09:05] Marie Vakakis: So the misconceptions are around laziness, not caring, not trying hard enough, but people, when they f. Get that diagnosis. I think griefs the biggest feeling that they talk about in therapy. 

[00:09:20] Ron Souers: Yeah, so, so what are some of the things that, that you do to help them get through that grief? 

[00:09:27] Marie Vakakis: It depends on how they came to therapy.

[00:09:29] Marie Vakakis: So some people come with the diagnosis and then they have a bit of an idea of what they want to do in therapy and for others through our sessions, I might start to see traits of A DHD and I recommend. The assessment. And so we come at it from a different angle There. A lot of it is a lot of schema therapy, so understanding those different beliefs you have about yourself and the world, and we try and figure out what they are and maybe where they come from and [00:10:00] how we can adapt the behaviour to not be as perhaps.

[00:10:06] Marie Vakakis: Keeping you stuck or a self-fulfilling prophecy. So we can look at some of those. A lot of self-compassion. Yeah. And sometimes bringing in partners or parents or, you know, even housemates, bringing in other people to sort of talk about how they can be supportive or maybe they can educate themselves and, and see ways that they can support that person.

[00:10:30] Marie Vakakis: It’s so varied. I do see a lot of comorbidities with anxiety and depression, and it makes sense, especially the, the symptoms that come with not feeling inadequate, never feeling good enough. Feeling, uh, that rejection sensitivity. So a lot of that can lead to a really low mood or a lot of anxiety in social settings.

[00:10:51] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And so we might tackle that in a targeted way as well. 

[00:10:54] Ron Souers: Yeah, definitely can relate with like, you know, I’ve had some conversations with my [00:11:00] therapist about like, you know, the, the importance of having the right diagnose. Because it, it could, you know, especially in kids like PTSD could be easily mislabeled for a DHD and those two treatments are completely different and one could end up having a lot more damage.

[00:11:22] Ron Souers: To that patient, you know, or to that client that you have. And you know, it’s, it’s great that you see that and you know, not, not, and unfortunately, like not a lot of therapists do see that. They just wanna make a quick diagnosis and get you out the door, you know, maybe even prescribe you medication. So like with grief and depression, they’re very close and you know, it’s hard to differentiate the two.

[00:11:47] Ron Souers: Do you have like. A way that you can do that? 

[00:11:50] Marie Vakakis: In what way? Like, how I would adapt the treatment for A DHD or how would I know which area to sort of focus on? 

[00:11:58] Ron Souers: Yeah. How, how, which [00:12:00] one they’re, they’re really like, are they just, uh, you know, suffering from grief or a loss, or are they actually clinically depressed?

[00:12:07] Marie Vakakis: I mean, to me it doesn’t matter as much. I’m not as. Fixated on the labels. And here the way our system works, we don’t need to have that much clarity in the diagnosis to be able to access, uh, our Medicare system and our, like, our health insurance here works a little bit differently. So the diagnosis to me is only as useful as it provides direction to what to do.

[00:12:32] Marie Vakakis: And I’m a big believer that pills don’t teach skills, whether it’s for mental health or physical health. There’s a lot of. Things that we can change and influence in our day-to-day life. From exercise to what we eat, to who we interact with, that we can’t just fix with a pill. And so. I would be talking to that person about where they want to go, where they want to be, what’s getting in the way, perhaps [00:13:00] understanding their history and grief can be part of depression.

[00:13:05] Marie Vakakis: It can be that feeling of helplessness and loss of enjoyment in things, and that can come from grief. But then I also don’t wanna be focusing on a diagnosis of depression when it is just not just grief that minimises it. Yeah. It’s. Grief, especially when it’s actually like bereavement of the loss of somebody.

[00:13:25] Marie Vakakis: It’s very different. So understanding what’s happened prior to someone coming to see me, 

[00:13:31] Ron Souers: yeah, 

[00:13:32] Marie Vakakis: can shape that treatment a little bit. And then with some modalities like acceptance and commitment therapy or EMDR therapy, which are two that I like to use, the diagnosis doesn’t really matter as much because we’re focusing on.

[00:13:46] Marie Vakakis: Certain memories, mindfulness, adaptive processing. Hmm. And we can intervene at a number of different points without having to know an exact diagnosis. For some of those which are often [00:14:00] quite mixed presentations, it’s not unusual that someone will have anxiety and depression or have a diagnosis of A DHD and have poor mental health as a result of not fitting in or not feeling that they can cope with day-to-day things or that emotional.

[00:14:16] Marie Vakakis: Reactivity or difficulty regulating emotion. So it can be really hard to sometimes separate those into niche diagnoses. It doesn’t fit. 

[00:14:25] Ron Souers: Yeah, I can imagine. And, and, and a lot of people, you know, do have those like co concurring. A dual diagnosis. You know, it’s not like we just have one thing and that’s it.

[00:14:38] Ron Souers: You know, it’s, a lot of it is, I believe, you know, from, you know, a product to the environment that, that we grow up in, in the system that we have. So, kinda switching gears a little bit. You’ve trained schools and workplace to have tough conversation around mental health. What’s one common mistake organisations make when trying to support mental health and what should they do [00:15:00] instead?

[00:15:01] Marie Vakakis: Wow. Big question. There’s two bits. One is being so scared to say the wrong thing that they say nothing. 

[00:15:08] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Marie Vakakis: And then on the other side is when someone isn’t doing so well, we try to fix it. So just like we were talking about in part one of this conversation where you were saying what you would do for your younger self is to show compassion and hold space and you know, be attuned.

[00:15:27] Marie Vakakis: That’s the piece that’s missing. So often people will jump in and try to fix it. I think, think positively just, oh, but you’re so lucky to just have dot, dot do or just be whatever. They try to fix it, they try to take it away. They try to brush off the sadness or the pain or the whatever the emotion is, and that leaves people feeling disconnected that they’re not being seen.

[00:15:52] Marie Vakakis: Not being heard. Yeah. And so, I mean that’s more on an individual level, those conversations. But certain organisations or [00:16:00] cultures like create a culture where they handle that differently or they role model that differently and invest in training and. Whether that’s for managers or for leaders through their orientation or onboarding.

[00:16:14] Marie Vakakis: Mm-hmm. Or when people get promoted, is actually teaching those skills that maybe we label as as soft skills, and so they seem very maybe gendered or not important, but those communication skills, listening, holding space, showing empathy and validating are crucial for working. 

[00:16:32] Ron Souers: Yeah, for 

[00:16:33] Marie Vakakis: working, for working relationships and in particular when someone’s not okay or not even having a mental illness or mental ill health, just not feeling good or having something happen on their weekend, like, yeah, we underestimate the power of listening and.

[00:16:48] Marie Vakakis: Empathising. 

[00:16:50] Ron Souers: Yeah, definitely. And, and that’s powerful, you know, and it’s like what you said, we, you know, I know growing up I was like, if you said, yeah, [00:17:00] just it’s okay and you know, like, you only got this, or just be, you know, just smile. Be positive, I would be like, you know, pretty much like, go screw yourself.

[00:17:12] Ron Souers: Like you don’t know what you’re talking about. Like it’s not that easy and you’re not, and first off, you’re not even telling me how to do that. Like you’re just telling me what to do and that I’m a problem basically. And, and I need to just figure out on my own how to get better with that. And that that’s when, when all I really need is.

[00:17:34] Ron Souers: Somebody to just be like, you know, like in my workspace the other day, like my manager asked me, he was like, how are you doing? I was like, not really that good. And he was like, me too. Like, and it was just great because it was like, we’re not trying to pretend to be good. We’ve developed this relationship where it’s like, it’s okay.

[00:17:54] Ron Souers: To admit, like, yeah, I’m, I’m not feeling so fly right now. And in a sense like that [00:18:00] helped me and him get through that day better because it’s like, I don’t have to carry this all by myself or I don’t have to pretend and put on a smile. So, I know, know, you probably do get some pushback on like, you know, some of those things that you talk in trying to help schools.

[00:18:18] Ron Souers: Like what do you do? Do they come to you for the help or, or is it. Something where, you know, somebody asks you to come in and, and there’s some challenge in there. How does that work out? 

[00:18:31] Marie Vakakis: It’s all of those things. So some will have a leadership team that prioritise learning around about mental health or relationships or difficult conversations.

[00:18:43] Marie Vakakis: And actually I think we underestimate a lot of people do value it, and yet there are so many things that schools in particular are expected to do. That make it hard to even find the money and the time because teachers are already doing extra hours [00:19:00] outside of school hours on weekends. So to get them to come in on a school holiday to do training is a big ask to get funding to cover their classes with casual relief teachers.

[00:19:12] Marie Vakakis: On a school day is really hard and it disrupts learning, and so it’s quite logistically difficult to find time to do an in-depth training that offers a lot of value when people are fresh and awake and alert because sometimes we can do. A one hour talk at a staff meeting. But that’s at the end of the day.

[00:19:34] Ron Souers: Yeah, 

[00:19:35] Marie Vakakis: at 3 30, 4 o’clock. And everyone’s already kind of pooped and they’ve had a full day of overstimulation with kids and teens and parents and bells and all the stuff that happens. And then they’re learning about something that can be really difficult or really heavy. And so a lot of people do value it.

[00:19:54] Marie Vakakis: It’s finding the time to put it into a really busy. Calendar. 

[00:19:58] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:19:59] Marie Vakakis: Some [00:20:00] will have maybe an incident. They might see an increase in things like self-harm or suicidal ideation, or have a school counselor or wellbeing coordinator really emphasise the importance of this being a shared responsibility, not just one person’s responsibility.

[00:20:18] Marie Vakakis: And so those schools will will come and ask to have some training. Something like mental health first aid. Yeah, that’s a curriculum that’s kind of like a structured curriculum. That’s through Mental Health First Aid Australia. Some will ask for just little shorter. Information sessions for their staff, and I run them around anxiety or school stress, exam pressure, demystifying and debunking myths around self-harm, so smaller, targeted personalised training.

[00:20:49] Ron Souers: Yeah, 

[00:20:49] Marie Vakakis: and it really depends, like with the school, if I get an inquiry, we can have a bit of a conversation and co-create something that feels suitable, and if it’s outside my skill [00:21:00] set or someone else would be better suited, I can make some recommendations of where else to go. 

[00:21:06] Ron Souers: That’s awesome. You know, that definitely helped, you know, to, to really navigate that, that question in such an informative way.

[00:21:15] Ron Souers: So it’s more about finding the time and when they’re ready for that information, you know? ’cause I know in, in my workspace. I’m part of this mental health committee and some of it’s like pulling teeth, you know, some more of it’s like, I don’t know if they necessarily value mental health. It just feels like to me that they feel, it feels like it’s more of a, it’s not really taken as seriously as it needs to be.

[00:21:43] Ron Souers: And you know, that can be disheartening, you know, especially when you’re trying to. You’re part of a committee and then, and a committee is supposed to do, you know, come up, it’s supposed to do action. You know, at least come up with something to help. And you know, when those things [00:22:00] aren’t, you know, taken seriously or just said, well, oh, okay, we’ll look into that.

[00:22:06] Ron Souers: But nothing happens. It can be frustrating. 

[00:22:09] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And as you were saying that, I mean, I don’t have any official statistics on this, but in my whole working career, I’ve only met. Or that I know of one person who’s had to do CPR on somebody. 

[00:22:23] Ron Souers: Hmm. 

[00:22:23] Marie Vakakis: And yet. The amount of people who’ve had to have conversations with a friend, a child, a housemate, a uni friend, about suicidal thoughts.

[00:22:35] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:22:36] Marie Vakakis: Would be, I would’ve lost count. And so when people say, oh, we don’t have these issues here, or mental health is whatever, I find it very interesting because. We’re faced with those conversations a lot more than we’re faced with what we might learn in In physical first aid. 

[00:22:54] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Marie Vakakis: And also those skills will not.

[00:22:58] Marie Vakakis: Disadvantage you in other areas [00:23:00] of your life. They enhance other conversations. Even me as a trained therapist who runs training, every single training, I learn something new. 

[00:23:11] Ron Souers: Wow. And 

[00:23:12] Marie Vakakis: so I think it’s total crap if someone’s like, well, I know all this already because I might learn a new resource that I didn’t know existed.

[00:23:20] Marie Vakakis: A someone will phrase something in a way that I thought, wow, that’s really cool. They might use an analogy or a metaphor. That I’m like, I’m gonna put that in my, in my notebook for for late. I’m gonna take note of that. And so I learned something new. Every session, every workshop, every training. And so I don’t know that I think we could all keep doing this and it won’t disadvantage us to learn more about mental health communication, validating, empathising, listening, what resources are out there, how to approach these conversations because they’re ongoing.

[00:23:55] Marie Vakakis: We in relationships all the time and we all have [00:24:00] mental health, and I think we could all benefit from learning a little bit more about how to have those conversations and look after our mental health. And express concern and show support if we are worried about someone in a way that’s going to be more conducive to a good conversation.

[00:24:20] Ron Souers: Yeah, you’re definitely speaking my language there. Like it’s, it’s about having those conversations like literally. And I’m sure that these parents or, or these teachers are, are so much better equipped to handle the students once they’ve had this training and like implement some of those tools. And, you know, it’s like, why wasn’t this done?

[00:24:40] Ron Souers: Because it’s like the overwhelm, I believe comes from the inability or, or the wrong mindset coming into these situations and, and viewing the kids as a problem when it’s actually. Like if you understood that what was going on, they’re not actually a problem. It’s just maybe you [00:25:00] need to just tweak how you’re having that communication with them.

[00:25:03] Ron Souers: Maybe you need to ask like the questions that you’re asking need to change, you know? ’cause I can, I’d seen in this, that mental health committee, I actually had one the other day where it was like. I had the plant manager and the head HR and like, you know, a bunch of, you know, upper management in the meeting.

[00:25:24] Ron Souers: And at first I was kind of intimidated ’cause it was like, man, like what do I do? You know, I’m not used to like, this is the first time they’ve showed up and, you know, I’ve invited them and, you know, it was interesting. But I was like, you know, I went through it and you know, I, I have like. You know, a partner that does it with me.

[00:25:43] Ron Souers: So she did the, the slides and all this, and we had it, we talked about dealing with intense emotions at work, and there was a point where they all pretty much opened up about how they handle personal, emotional, you know, relationships with their partner. You know, it was the chance for [00:26:00] me to, to say like.

[00:26:01] Ron Souers: And almost all of them were talking about how they don’t even know what their partner’s dealing with, you know? So it was like an opportunity to be like, well, if you don’t even know what your partner’s dealing with, like imagine how much more so like the people that you’re working around. And one of like the guys was like actually talking about some deep.

[00:26:26] Ron Souers: Like emotional baggage that he was carrying around, but I, because I believe that that was necessary for him to be there. So it was, it was an incredible opportunity to kind of plant a seed to like, hey. This is actually like really helpful, you know, just this session. And we’re not even really trained to do that.

[00:26:46] Ron Souers: Like imagine if we got training in here. So I can definitely see that as something that it made a big difference in my day that day. 

[00:26:55] Marie Vakakis: That’s awesome. 

[00:26:56] Ron Souers: So, um, you help parents. [00:27:00] Connect with their teens, which is not always easy. What’s one thing parents often get wrong about what teens actually need from them?

[00:27:08] Marie Vakakis: It’s that same thing of just trying to fix it, and I think parents, they want to take the pain away or they don’t wanna see their kids suffer or they want to problem solve it because they think, well, I’ve got the answer, I’ve got the solution. And most of the time that’s not what they need. They want to fill.

[00:27:27] Marie Vakakis: Seen, heard and understood. And that comes through empathising with the feeling, validating it, and the validating bit is where parents get stuck. Actually, so many people get stuck because I think they, I mean, they tell me this. I don’t have to think it, they tell me that, but I’m, it means I’m agreeing with them.

[00:27:49] Marie Vakakis: If I say, oh, it makes sense that you feel sad that your friend didn’t invite you to their party, then I’m agreeing. They should be sad, but they shouldn’t be sad because their [00:28:00] friend is being, you know, whatever. And I’m like, but that’s not validating you saying, I see that for you. That hurt your feelings and it makes sense that you are sad.

[00:28:09] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. It’s not saying you agree that they should be sad and they really struggle with this. And that’s the bit that’s missing is empathise. I see you’re sad, validate it makes sense. You are really hoping to be at that party, or you really wanna be included. It makes sense. I get that. I get why you are sad.

[00:28:30] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:28:31] Marie Vakakis: And then if needed. You might problem solve, or if they’ve done something that requires a conversation about like a consequence or a boundary, then you have that conversation. Then you might say, look, is there something you’d like to do together? Or, what might you try? What could we do from here? Or what have you already tried?

[00:28:51] Marie Vakakis: But if you go straight into, why don’t you just call your other friend? Why don’t you just go to the movies and forget about it? They might stop crying, but it’s [00:29:00] not because they feel better, it’s because they’ve realised you can’t handle when I’m sad. Yeah. So I’m gonna hide it from you. Yeah. And that over time creates so much disconnection and loneliness.

[00:29:12] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. And I have young people sitting here thinking, I don’t even think my parents like me and their parents say, what do you mean? Of course I like you. I love you. Look, I’m trying to take all of this away from you and offer you this. Yeah. But we can’t feel that way if people don’t listen to us. If we don’t actually feel heard and understood, we then don’t feel like we belong.

[00:29:31] Marie Vakakis: And that’s the bit for me is the empathising, validating what you said, holding the attunement, holding space. You mentioned in part one of this Gabo mate, he’s got some really good resources and book. He’s got one hold onto Your Children, which I think is really good one for parents. It’s a bit clunky.

[00:29:48] Marie Vakakis: It’s quite long, but it’s also an interesting book. But it’s that communication piece is, is the bit that I think people could experiment with doing differently. 

[00:29:59] Ron Souers: [00:30:00] Yeah, no, that there’s a whole lot in there. That’s amazing. Especially like there’s been this theme of even throughout the, both of these podcasts is like of fixing.

[00:30:09] Ron Souers: Of this sense of fixing and like, and what I’ve seen from that is like. If you say somebody needs to be fixed, it means automatically that we’re broken. So it’s like if you go into it without empathising and like saying like, look, I know you’re sad from that and, and I get it. Like I be sad too. Like I totally understand that.

[00:30:31] Ron Souers: And then going into like what we can, can we try to help out with that? It’s so small but it’s so powerful, you know? So like Thank you for sharing that. You know, I can imagine like. How many lives would be different if we just saw each other as like fellow human beings that are just going through like, it’s okay to feel sad, you know, especially for men.

[00:30:54] Ron Souers: Like I know in my experience, like sadness, when I did the work and, and [00:31:00] continue to do the work on sat, it was one of the toughest emotions to process and allow myself to feel because it’s, as a man, it’s like, it’s like it’s an invalid emotion. Like it should not, it’s come outta my mouth that I’m sad. So when I first said that to another man, it just felt weird.

[00:31:18] Ron Souers: But it’s like the more that I talked about it, the more it I realised like there was something underneath that sadness that was like frustration and anger that was buried underneath it, and it continued to weigh me down. You know, and I was always like trying to push it away and be positive and like, you can’t feel sad.

[00:31:36] Ron Souers: There’s nothing that, like, you’re doing this. And it’s like, but I am feeling sad. Like I need to feel this, like, where this may be coming from something long ago that I’ve been holding onto for years and it’s coming up and now I’m just, and I’m saying I’m here for myself, but I’m still pushing it down.

[00:31:54] Ron Souers: You know, it’s, it’s like, how can I expect. The child in me to become confident that I’m [00:32:00] trying to nurture and, and build that trust with, if I continue to push down certain emotions, like I can’t just heal part of me without looking at everything. 

[00:32:10] Marie Vakakis: And as you’re saying about the pushing down emotions, you’ll either try and numb it or overcompensate in other ways.

[00:32:18] Marie Vakakis: Yeah, so you might numb it with substances or it might come out as anger, irritability. But the thing is, when we try to selectively numb certain emotions, we actually numb. The more pleasant emotions too. Yeah, so it’s like with your sense of smell, you can’t just not smell dog poo. Right? It’s either you smell all the smells, you smell dog poo.

[00:32:40] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. Smell roses and cologne and scent candles. But you can’t just selectively not smell certain smells. If you step on dog poo, you’re going to smell dog poo. And emotions are a bit like that. If you’re trying to numb sadness, you’re actually going to numb joy. Wow. If you’re trying to numb grief, [00:33:00] you won’t let yourself experience love.

[00:33:02] Marie Vakakis: And so all of these things, they come together and they are, one is a direct consequence of being able to fill the other. We can’t love without ever knowing grief. 

[00:33:15] Ron Souers: Yeah. 

[00:33:15] Marie Vakakis: We can’t have pleasure without ever knowing pain. And so. They all matter and they tell us something. They tell us what’s important, maybe signposting what our values are, indicating what doesn’t feel right.

[00:33:31] Marie Vakakis: And it doesn’t mean you have to dwell in it and let it take over you, but noticing it and acknowledging it is a really powerful thing that allows you to feel those other more pleasant feelings as well. 

[00:33:44] Ron Souers: Yeah. That’s awesome. I love that. And I’m always talking about how emotions are, like my navigation for life, like my GPS, like I can’t navigate life if I’m not paying attention to what I’m feeling.

[00:33:57] Ron Souers: You know? And, and, and in an informed. [00:34:00] Mature way. It tells me where my boundaries are. It tells me what I should fear, and if I’m have an irrational fear for things like everything, then I’m not gonna be afraid of what I really need to be afraid of. And I’m not going to, you know, like not be afraid when I need to be brave.

[00:34:19] Ron Souers: So it’s important to like, you know, like you said, to feel all those, be able to feel those emotions more fully. I’ve gotta be able to. Give myself the permission to feel every emotion. So one question that I’m curious about, how do you navigate the emotional toll of holding space for so many others while still caring for yourself 

[00:34:42] Marie Vakakis: as a therapist?

[00:34:44] Marie Vakakis: It’s taken a bit of practice and I mean, I’m fortunate in, in a private practice setting, I control my own diary, so I’ve experimented with where I take breaks, how many people I see back to back. I have several regular [00:35:00] supervision groups, so I have groups and individual supervision, so that debriefing, understanding cases, or even listening to someone else present a case helps me feel.

[00:35:12] Marie Vakakis: Less alone or more connected. For me, movement is a really big one, so exercising before and sometimes after work, and not always with a level of intensity, but walking home, riding my bike home, coming home, walking the dog, I need that physical movement to decompress and it’s a lot of things that seem really boring, but I really prioritise sleep.

[00:35:39] Marie Vakakis: Especially on, on days where I’m working on the weekend, I can be a little bit cranky. It doesn’t matter. The person I see first thing in the morning deserves to get as refreshed a version of me as the last one for the day. So I set boundaries with how many people I see in a day, how I schedule my calendar.

[00:35:59] Marie Vakakis: I don. [00:36:00] Drink alcohol usually before I, I don’t drink much anyway. I eat well during the day, so I’m not sitting there in a session starving. And so it’s all of those small, very boring things. Sometimes I’ll go for a walk in between sessions and that keeps me doing the work for longer. I’m more at risk of burnout because I love what I do.

[00:36:21] Marie Vakakis: I can do it. Especially the content creation side. I can do it when I get home and on weekends, and that’s if I do that too often, that can be, yeah, I get a little bit burnt out because even though I really enjoy it and I could be podcasting or editing videos or researching different people to interview, reading a, a nonfiction book before bed, I love it and I enjoy it, but my brain doesn’t rest.

[00:36:46] Marie Vakakis: And so that’s actually my, my biggest risk factor is because I love what I do. I could do it. Too often, and so to overcompensate for that, I go camping, I go hiking. I try and do things that take away the technology that [00:37:00] I was away this weekend and I didn’t have phone reception for a good part of that time.

[00:37:05] Marie Vakakis: And it forces me to enjoy nature and enjoy quality time with my friends, with my partner. We played board games instead of watching tv and that. That just takes a bit of targeted, prioritising otherwise. I could fall into some really bad habits, and then I’m not good to anybody. 

[00:37:26] Ron Souers: No, that’s awesome. I, I definitely can relate to all that.

[00:37:29] Ron Souers: Like, I, I definitely have trouble with, you know, boundaries because I love what I’m doing and, you know, I want to do so many things. And having a DHD, it’s just like ideas just pop off. It’s, you know, a new thing enters and I’m all about it, so it’s like I’ve gotta. Use my prudence to be like, yeah, look, that’s not a priority right now.

[00:37:54] Ron Souers: That’s something that you can do later. And I, I ha I have mental health days where I’m just like, [00:38:00] okay, I’m only gonna do, I’m really not gonna, I’m not thinking about work today. You know, unless it’s absent an absolute emergency. And like, I need to get better at like, scheduling things where I’m like, you can’t get ahold of me.

[00:38:12] Ron Souers: On certain days because like I know that that will help me on the days that I need to show up. I need that day to charge up for all the other days. So that’s, that’s beautiful how you put that, you know, and that, that you see that in yourself as like an example. So. Before we wrap up, I have a bonus rapid fire session for you.

[00:38:34] Ron Souers: You think you’re ready? 

[00:38:35] Marie Vakakis: Um, yes. Fine. 

[00:38:38] Ron Souers: So, tea, hiking or uno, which one is your ultimate reset button? 

[00:38:44] Marie Vakakis: I drink about 10 cups of tea a day, so that’s pretty easy. But hiking is, I’ve just planned a eight day hike with some girlfriends for next year. So Wow. Hiking is. The ultimate bat tea is much easier to fit in.

[00:38:59] Ron Souers: Yeah. What [00:39:00] kind of tea? 

[00:39:01] Marie Vakakis: I drink black tea in the morning and then I switch to peppermint green tea and then like this. Oh wow. Time or de-stressing kind of like blends or cha mal in the evening. 

[00:39:13] Ron Souers: Oh, robust. So there, there’s like a lot of hiking in, uh, in, in Australia. A lot of good spots. 

[00:39:19] Marie Vakakis: Yeah. So the next big one I’ll do is in Tasmania.

[00:39:22] Marie Vakakis: And this weekend I’ll do some local ones going camping for the weekend. 

[00:39:27] Ron Souers: Tasmania. Wow. I’m jealous. So what’s one myth about therapy you wish would disappear forever? 

[00:39:35] Marie Vakakis: That it doesn’t help or it’s just talking? Just talking air quote. 

[00:39:42] Ron Souers: Yeah, well, it can be that if you believe that that’s what’s gonna happen.

[00:39:46] Ron Souers: But yeah, it’s so much more than that. So what’s one word you’d use to describe the teenage mind? 

[00:39:53] Marie Vakakis: Growing. 

[00:39:55] Ron Souers: Growing. That’s awesome. I would say chaotic.[00:40:00] 

[00:40:01] Ron Souers: But do I think you’re much more kind than I am? 

[00:40:04] Marie Vakakis: Well, you, you use the example of an octopus being out of water in your last, in our other episode, but it’s sort of like, imagine you’ve got, each of those tentacles are growing, you are going to be clumsy, you’re trying to coordinate them all. You’re trying to figure out how to move in a different way.

[00:40:21] Marie Vakakis: And it feels like that the brain is growing, it’s evolving social identity. Relationships, who you are, how do you stay connected? How do you be different? It’s all growing. It’s all of those eight tentacles growing at once. There’s all these parts of us growing. Yeah. It’s going to be awkward. It’s going to be clumsy.

[00:40:39] Marie Vakakis: We’re going to trip and fall. We might be slippery. You put it in the wrong environment, it might not cope. And so, yeah, I think just growing and changing and people forget that. 

[00:40:50] Ron Souers: Yeah. We’re one of the only, you know creatures that really, it takes us. A few years to develop fully. And you know, like, and unlike a deer, [00:41:00] they pretty much are ready to go from birth.

[00:41:03] Ron Souers: Like, we need a lot of care. So thank you for that insight. So if, if people want to, you know, reach out to you and connect, how, how would they go about doing that? 

[00:41:15] Marie Vakakis: So you can listen to my podcast, this complex life, or find me on. Instagram and LinkedIn under Marie Vecas. 

[00:41:25] Ron Souers: Awesome. Well, it’s been a pleasure and an honor to do this seat swab with you.

[00:41:31] Ron Souers: And you know, it’s definitely, um, you know, seeing it from the therapist side has been very insightful. Thank you for coming on. 

[00:41:38] Marie Vakakis: Thanks for having me. 

[00:41:39] Ron Souers: Alright, bye.

[00:41:44] Marie Vakakis: Thank you for listening to keep the Conversation going. Head on over to Instagram or LinkedIn and follow me if you’d like to keep updated with episodes and other interesting things happening in mental health. Join my Weekly, this Complex Life newsletter where I’ll share tools, tips, and insights. There’s a link in the [00:42:00] show notes.

[00:42:01] Marie Vakakis: Got a question you want answered. Ship me an email or a dm. I’d love to hear from you and if you enjoy the show, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review. It helps other people find the podcast.